[nagdu] cooperation vs. force

Wed Feb 29 19:51:25 UTC 2012

I just caution you to be careful.  I let my dogs run free in our huge 
backyard, and years and years have passed with out a mishap.  But a couple 
months ago, the wind had blown the gate open, of course I had no idea, my 
little terrier got curious and ran out, he was hit and killed by a car. 
Luckily it wasn't my Seeing Eye dog and only a pet, but things can happen in 
the blink of an eye, even in areas that have been safe before.  I'm not 
saying it's right or wrong, just sending out a warning of caution.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Julie J.
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 12:58 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force

Cindy,

I think the crux of the issue I'm trying to get to is freedom for the
dog.  Crates are a wonderful thing.  Leashes are too.  Rules are
important for all of us.  But what bothers me or at least what I find
myself coming back to time and again is this idea of micromanaging our
dogs to the point that they have no freedom, no choice and no ability to
just be.

The idea that I am doing something for the good of the dog gives me
shivers sometimes.  Sure taking away an electrical cord the dog is
chewing on is for the good of the dog. Feeding a nutritious high quality
food is for the good of the dog.  However there are loads and loads of
things we lump into this category of "good for the dog", but how do we
know that is really true?   It brings me back to institutions for
disabled people because they were for our own good.  The days when it
was contributory negligence for a blind person to be out alone because
it was for our own good.  Sure people and dogs aren't the same, but I
can't help wondering about some of the things I do, telling myself it is
for the good of the dog.

Monty is a very high energy dog.  He loves running, sniffing and chasing
small furry things.  I knew he would love to run free out near our farm
pond.  I also knew the risk of letting him run off leash.  I struggled
with it for a long time before letting him run free.  I was so nervous
the first time.  Is he running for the road?  Is he going near the
pond?  Is he going to get into a scrap with a small furry animal that
doesn't want to be chased?   Is he okay?  And yes, even though Monty has
an amazing recall there was a part of me that feared him running off
into the sunset in search of something better.

In the end it all worked out.  He is fine off leash.  He loves the
experience and has never gotten himself into trouble of any variety.
The benefit to him to run off leash has far outweighed the risk of
letting him do so, at least to me. However for a long time I told myself
that it was for his own good that I didn't let him or other dogs run off
leash. When I finally did unclip his leash and let him go, after the
fear abated, I realized our relationship and just made a giant leap
forward.  I have no words to express what it means to have a dog that
will run and play and be totally free, but will come back to me in a
moment's notice not because I told him to, but because he genuinely
wants to be with me of his own free will.

I'm not saying that everyone should go forth and let their dogs off
leash to run amuck.  Belle is a good example of this being a sure recipe
for a disaster of mega proportions.  I'm just saying that for me, I have
a deep need in my soul to have a relationship with my dog that is based
on freedom and choice.  I don't want to ever be in a position to have to
force my dog to do anything.  I want them to trust and respect me so
that I am able to ask them to do what I am wanting and they choose
whether or not to do it.  If they refuse to do what I'm asking I want to
know why.  Are they confused?  Not capable of doing the thing?  Telling
me it's a stupid idea? Afraid? or something else.

Anyhow, I'm prone to thinking too much and this is probably another
instance where I have gotten lost in my own pondering. *smile*

Julie

On 2/29/2012 11:03 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
> I would say that many, though certainly not all, trainers will say that to 
> keep them confined when you aren't there is as much for their protection 
> as for your own well being. I suspect, too, that this depends on the dogs. 
> Our dogs are confined at nights and are confined when we are gone; they 
> expect it, though go to their kennels when asked to do so and are praised 
> for having done it. I would like to find room for one more crate in order 
> that I didn't tie fisher. We try not to leave them for hugely long periods 
> of time, and they are only required do be there at night or during the day 
> if we are both gone. I feel they have to be corrected when they have done 
> something they should not, but more than that they must be hugely praised 
> when they have done the right thing. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you 
> have said, but I would say that we have a great relationship with all of 
> these dogs.
>
> Cindy
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>
>> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections, 
>> tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking.  Although I'm not absolutely 
>> opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of 
>> punitive measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use 
>> of these affect the relationship with the dog.  To me the relationship I 
>> have with my dog is the most important thing.  If that is built from 
>> trust, cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be fine. 
>> I want a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of fear of a 
>> punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company.  I want him to 
>> feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.  I feel that 
>> too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper the ability for 
>> him to do these things.  I want him to learn self control so he can 
>> manage his own impulses out of a place of  confidence in his own choices 
>> rather than me micromanaging his life.
>>
>> I'm not explaining well.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think 
>> freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.  Too 
>> often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my dog's 
>> lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom.  I regret that.  It is 
>> something that I have learned with Monty.  To truly trust a dog you have 
>> to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you that they 
>> won't.
>>
>> Julie
>>
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