[nagdu] cooperation vs. force
Natalie
nrorrell at qwest.net
Mon Mar 12 01:29:24 UTC 2012
Hi Julie,
Definitely makes sense to me, and I agree with your sentiments. My feeling
is that my dog and I are a team, and sometimes I can't always be the alpha
female. Sometimes my dog needs to be that alpha male, and has every right
to be. I always tell people, it's the sum of the team, not just any given
individual. Hope I make sense, and good for you for that mindset.
Best,
Nat and Liam Joshua
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
> Robert,
>
> I'm not even sure I understand the issue! *smile* It's like I have this
> queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach when I read messages that say
> things like, "don't let your dog get away with X", or "you should give
> your dog a high collar correction for Y" or "he's playing games with you,
> correct him". It all feels like a need to assert that the human is more
> powerful and the dominant one.
>
> I understand that many people feel this way, that the humans are the
> dominant member of the pack and need to assert that authority at every
> opportunity. I used to believe that way and many of the things I do today
> are habits from that way of thinking. It's just been over the past few
> years that I'm coming to understand that there are different ways of
> thinking and different ways of interacting with dogs.
>
> Two books that I've read recently that have got me to thinking more than
> usual about this dilemma are, "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Susan
> Clothier, and "Merl's Door" forgot the author. I agree with Susan quite
> a bit and "Merl's Door has some concepts to ponder, although I can't quite
> embrace the choices the author puts forth.
>
> And to make sure you understand I'm not picking on you or saying that how
> you handle your dog is wrong. I don't mean to put anyone on the spot. I
> just wanted to bring up the concept of how we view our dogs, partners,
> subservient, bio machines, little people in fur coats or something else
> for discussion. I think how we view our relationship with our dog on a
> deep psychological level directly influences how we interact with dogs.
>
> My example of off leash running wasn't meant to suggest that others should
> do this. Just that for me, letting Monty run off leash for the first time
> was a turning point in our relationship. It was a meaningful moment for
> me. It was then that I truly realized that I could trust him, that he
> had chosen me as much as I had chosen him and that I need to let go. I
> had to stop trying to control him so much and let him "run free" so to
> speak in other areas of our work so he could show me that he was
> trustworthy. I didn't realize until that moment that some part of me was
> expecting him to fail. By giving him no opportunities to mess up I was
> deluding myself into thinking that I could prevent this failure. Only by
> giving him a chance to choose whether or not to mess up or cooperate with
> me could he truly cooperate. Cooperation can't be controlled or forced.
> It must come as a free will donation of the heart.
>
> I hope I am making a bit more sense the more I write. I feel like I'm
> getting closer to the core of the issue. I look forward to hearing what
> other think about this.
> Julie
>
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>
> On 2/29/2012 5:42 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
>> Hello again Julie:
>>
>> Another excellent message. I really wish I could let my dog off leash to
>> run--he so loves to run and chase. I imagine myself in a giant, perfectly
>> fenced area throwing things for him to retrieve. However, the university
>> housing complex is situated very near a road--it's a suburban area with
>> no fencing whatsoever. For me, the risks far outweigh the benefits; I
>> have a virtually nonexistent yard and if I were to throw something, the
>> dog would most likely end up on another's "lawn", something I have no
>> right to allow. I've thought several times about letting him off at my
>> grandmother's house, who does have a large property, but she too is near
>> a moderately busy roadway--at least, it's busy for a country road.
>> As for corrections, I only correct if I believe that the dog 110% knows
>> what the command is and is distracted or just refusing to listen. Of
>> course, I take the circumstances into consideration. I will not correct
>> him if he refuses to go forward--I will thoroughly investigate why he
>> chooses not too--free choice is one of the things that makes a dog so
>> effective as a guide. I agree that a dog should do things because it
>> wants to do them rather than out of fear, but dogs have a very limited
>> ability to reason. Maybe Bailey is excited that we're going for a walk
>> and he doesn't want to sit--he is distracted and doesn't listen to my
>> commands. I will give two "sit" commands, the second more firm than the
>> first--if he doesn't comply, I will administer a correction and tell him
>> to sit--if he does so, I will praise and scratch him. This is just one
>> example of the way I work with him. I believe that it would be nice to
>> have a dog that only refuses when they believe they have good reaso
> n to do so--however, a good reason to refuse a command to a dog isn't
> always acceptable to the master. Maybe Bailey is tired and doesn't want to
> "up". Maybe he feels that the praise I would give isn't good enough at
> that time. To a dog, that may be a good reason--or maybe there is an
> interesting smell coming from 200 yards away on which he would rather
> concentrate. So, it is primarily up to the human part of the machine to
> determine if it is reasonable to give a command and have it followed. Yes,
> maybe the dog has a valid reason for refusal which should be determined
> before any correction, however it should be mostly up to the human to
> determine whether such a reason exists before even issuing the command.
>> I hold this true save for things like street crossings--I give the dog
>> much more choice here and hope that he will make the right decision as to
>> go or not. Hopefully, I will one day have a safe environment in which
>> Bailey can run to his heart's content. At the moment, however, I believe
>> that it would be a recipe for disaster. I am just a block from a major
>> city street which constantly has cars zooming along at 60. You can see
>> the disaster. Anyway, I look forward to your response--I hope I am
>> understanding the issue.
>>
>>
>> Robert Hooper
>> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
>> The Ohio State University
>> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
>> 653 Cuyahoga Court
>> Columbus, Ohio 43210
>> (740) 856-8195
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:59 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>>
>> Cindy,
>>
>> I think the crux of the issue I'm trying to get to is freedom for the
>> dog. Crates are a wonderful thing. Leashes are too. Rules are
>> important for all of us. But what bothers me or at least what I find
>> myself coming back to time and again is this idea of micromanaging our
>> dogs to the point that they have no freedom, no choice and no ability to
>> just be.
>>
>> The idea that I am doing something for the good of the dog gives me
>> shivers sometimes. Sure taking away an electrical cord the dog is
>> chewing on is for the good of the dog. Feeding a nutritious high quality
>> food is for the good of the dog. However there are loads and loads of
>> things we lump into this category of "good for the dog", but how do we
>> know that is really true? It brings me back to institutions for
>> disabled people because they were for our own good. The days when it was
>> contributory negligence for a blind person to be out alone because it was
>> for our own good. Sure people and dogs aren't the same, but I can't help
>> wondering about some of the things I do, telling myself it is for the
>> good of the dog.
>>
>> Monty is a very high energy dog. He loves running, sniffing and chasing
>> small furry things. I knew he would love to run free out near our farm
>> pond. I also knew the risk of letting him run off leash. I struggled
>> with it for a long time before letting him run free. I was so nervous
>> the first time. Is he running for the road? Is he going near the pond?
>> Is he going to get into a scrap with a small furry animal that
>> doesn't want to be chased? Is he okay? And yes, even though Monty has
>> an amazing recall there was a part of me that feared him running off into
>> the sunset in search of something better.
>>
>> In the end it all worked out. He is fine off leash. He loves the
>> experience and has never gotten himself into trouble of any variety.
>> The benefit to him to run off leash has far outweighed the risk of
>> letting him do so, at least to me. However for a long time I told myself
>> that it was for his own good that I didn't let him or other dogs run off
>> leash. When I finally did unclip his leash and let him go, after the fear
>> abated, I realized our relationship and just made a giant leap forward.
>> I have no words to express what it means to have a dog that will run and
>> play and be totally free, but will come back to me in a moment's notice
>> not because I told him to, but because he genuinely wants to be with me
>> of his own free will.
>>
>> I'm not saying that everyone should go forth and let their dogs off leash
>> to run amuck. Belle is a good example of this being a sure recipe for a
>> disaster of mega proportions. I'm just saying that for me, I have a deep
>> need in my soul to have a relationship with my dog that is based on
>> freedom and choice. I don't want to ever be in a position to have to
>> force my dog to do anything. I want them to trust and respect me so that
>> I am able to ask them to do what I am wanting and they choose whether or
>> not to do it. If they refuse to do what I'm asking I want to know why.
>> Are they confused? Not capable of doing the thing? Telling me it's a
>> stupid idea? Afraid? or something else.
>>
>> Anyhow, I'm prone to thinking too much and this is probably another
>> instance where I have gotten lost in my own pondering. *smile*
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/29/2012 11:03 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>> I would say that many, though certainly not all, trainers will say that
>>> to keep them confined when you aren't there is as much for their
>>> protection as for your own well being. I suspect, too, that this depends
>>> on the dogs. Our dogs are confined at nights and are confined when we
>>> are gone; they expect it, though go to their kennels when asked to do so
>>> and are praised for having done it. I would like to find room for one
>>> more crate in order that I didn't tie fisher. We try not to leave them
>>> for hugely long periods of time, and they are only required do be there
>>> at night or during the day if we are both gone. I feel they have to be
>>> corrected when they have done something they should not, but more than
>>> that they must be hugely praised when they have done the right thing.
>>> Maybe I am misunderstanding what you have said, but I would say that we
>>> have a great relationship with all of these dogs.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>
>>>> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections,
>>>> tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking. Although I'm not absolutely
>>>> opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of
>>>> punitive measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use
>>>> of these affect the relationship with the dog. To me the relationship
>>>> I have with my dog is the most important thing. If that is built from
>>>> trust, cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be
>>>> fine. I want a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of
>>>> fear of a punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company. I
>>>> want him to feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.
>>>> I feel that too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper
>>>> the ability for him to do these things. I want him to learn self
>>>> control so he can manage his own impulses out of a place of confidence
>>>> in his own choices rather than me micromanaging his life.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not explaining well. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I
>>>> think freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.
>>>> Too often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my
>>>> dog's lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom. I regret that.
>>>> It is something that I have learned with Monty. To truly trust a dog
>>>> you have to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you
>>>> that they won't.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
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