[nagdu] Naming names

Sat Apr 20 02:51:52 UTC 2013

Ann, great!  opions about policies and the like are great and as far as I'm 
concerned necessary.  However, bashing, name calling or other negative 
comments are unwelcome!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names


> Hi, All,
>
> I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't imagine 
> a
> list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to speak their
> honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other consumers who have the
> right to the most accurate and complete information possible to help them
> make informed decisions about how they meet the challenges of living as
> blind people.  If we cannot learn the truth from each other, from whom 
> will
> we learn it?  If we are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in
> connection to anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall
> as self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions from 
> our
> fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with a service
> which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind people?  From
> whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to learn about the
> differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various guide dog programs?
> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog 
> handlers
> who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really does have an
> advocacy cause to address here.
>
> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing, is
> okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school or a
> trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to be
> completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of the 
> core
> mission of this list.
>
> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate Labrador
> retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he worked until he 
> was
> almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had a 100% positive
> experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a couple of their
> policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a fine product at that
> time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog user, I would give TSE a
> positive recommendation with a couple of caviots.  I subsequently (in 
> 2001),
> received 2 German shepherd dogs from Fidelco, one female and one male. 
> Both
> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3 months, 
> the
> second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need to chase 
> anything
> that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams or sparkles, and 
> small
> children, not just distraction or losing focus on her work, but full-out
> barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.  The second dog repeatedly 
> bolted
> off after cats and other dogs, including after dogs in passing cars, 
> pulling
> me into traffic, or pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, 
> or
> pulling the harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after 
> whatever
> it was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the trainers
> and instructors from the school to try to resolve these issues, but to no
> avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for reevaluation, in case they
> could be considered "bad matches" and could be retrained to work as guides
> for someone else.  Neither dog was judged to be suitable for a second
> placement.  Both dogs were released from the guide program, one went to a
> pet home, the other went to the State Police (I don't know if he made it 
> as
> a police dog.)  I did not feel that I got the best of support from the
> program during the year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two
> dogs.  Based on this experience, I would not return to this program for
> another guide dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That
> is my experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one 
> datapoint
> among the many they might want to consider in their process of deciding 
> how
> to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog training 
> services
> is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think that anything I have
> said could be considered flaming or spreading rumors or untruths.  I think
> people must try to get to know the other individuals on a list like this 
> and
> that will help them decide which individuals generally have the same 
> values
> as their own and therefore whose opinions might prove the most useful to
> them as guidelines.
>
> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place where
> thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of us.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Eve,
>
> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this 
> list
> to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest that people
> should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>
> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's say
> I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a Toyota.  I go 
> to
> the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They are going to tell me 
> all
> the wonderful things about their cars and how they are better than the 
> rest.
>
> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the same
> things except of course their cars are the best, even better than Ford. 
> So
> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.
>
> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about 
> their
> experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice the 
> products
> I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or not I like what I'm
> hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information I
> have gathered.
>
> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>
> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog 
> users
> and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams and have 
> seen
> first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I had called the
> schools or read the info on their web sites I would in no way have the 
> same
> understanding of what they are offering.
>
> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but I
> rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with people
> respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very important 
> for
> people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.  The stuff that
> begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers brother had a guide dog
> from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly inappropriate.  I honestly 
> see
> no problem with a statement like, "I had a guide dog from XYZ and it was
> horrid."  That's not hearsay or gossip.  That's a honest firsthand 
> account.
>
> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
> Julie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eve Sanchez
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is that
> people are using names without knowing facts. They think they know, but
> rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being said (though 
> well
> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People 
> should
> not be learning from people on this list which schools are great and which
> are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People should be able to 
> learn
> from the source they wish to investigate. What we should be learning here 
> is
> our own experiences of occurances, how-to's, and what works for us. We can
> only honestly report about ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would
> intentionally lie, but people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing 
> comments,
> it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am getting sick of 
> this
> entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept them. If people want to quit
> the list because they cannot handle the rules then good riddance. Can we 
> get
> back to talking about our dogs now? Eve
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
> wrote:
>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion between
>> handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need to make.
>>
>> Sheila Leigland
>>
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>
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