[nagdu] Intelligent disobedience

Wed Jan 30 21:31:07 UTC 2013

Steps with the rail on the left.
He knows I need a rail besides him to get down the steps.
Curbs when we come to a curb he taught himself to go in front of me 
with his head on my left leg to let me know we are at a curb or a set of steps.
He is slowing down for ice.
I taught him this, walking to the dumpster.
If my shoe would slide, he would get a small pull on the leash.
This started telling him that we are needing to go slowly on ice.
this is in the mornings when I take his treasures to the dumster.
Original message:
> What kind of places have you all used to test your dog's level of
> intelligent disobedience?

> This topic has made me reflect on a past experience I had with my first
> guide dog Vanda. We were on the college campus, and I was unaware of the
> fact that they had dug up the pavement and there was a huge thirty foot deep
> hole there. They were doing some construction outside. I was trying to cross
> that driveway and she wouldn't let me, she was very insistant on it too. She
> threw her body in front of me and then spun to the right, as the hole was to
> our left. I had never seen her so insistant on getting her way and doing it
> the way she wanted, and now I know why.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Intelligent disobedience


>> I think intelligent disobedience is more closely related to confidence
>> level than anything else.  A dog basically needs to have the emotional
>> ability to say no without crumbling.

>> Monty is what I'd call very high on the obedience chart.  He very much
>> wants to please his people and will go above and beyond to accomplish
>> this.  He is also decently high on the confidence scale.  If I want to do
>> something dumb he will stick to his decision even after repeated attempts
>> to get him to do things my way.  It doesn't seem to bother him too much as
>> long as I don't correct or raise my voice.  So I've learned when we are
>> standing on the corner and he is refusing to go some particular way I need
>> to offer some different options until we can agree on one.

>> Belle is not a very obedient dog and is much lower in confidence.  With
>> her I got one chance to figure it out.  If she stopped and I didn't take
>> enough time to figure out what was going on and told her to continue, she
>> would.  sometimes that was not so great for me.  I don't know that she's a
>> good example though.  She was never really cut out to be a guide dog.

>> Tia, my first dog from way back when, was obedient when it suited her, but
>> was very confident.  She very much wanted to do things her way all the
>> time.  If I suggested some dumb thing she'd wait ever so patiently until I
>> saw things her way.  She never gave in to my stupidity.

>> It's an interesting discussion.  Thanks for bringing it up.
>> Julie

>> On 1/30/2013 2:16 PM, Tami Jarvis wrote:
>>> Tracy,

>>> That's something I've wondered about off and on about guide dogs in
>>> general. They're all trained in intelligent disobedience... But how
>>> stubborn is the average guide dog about applying that training?

>>> Mitzi is stubborn and has developed a number of ways of letting me
>>> know -- correction: trying to let me know -- that I am being a complete
>>> dumb head and would get myself hurt or done in if she didn't go to
>>> extraordinary lengths to protect me from myself. /lol/ She is also very
>>> good at saying, "I told you so," once I figure it out.

>>> So now I'm really spoiled, of course. But as Mitzi moves toward the
>>> 7-year mark, I do find myself wondering about that trait of hers. I think
>>> the major reason I want to do some basic guide dog training with DD's pup
>>> Zay is because she is naturally a more obedient type of dog, in the
>>> classical concept of obedience. Very eager to please, etc., etc. So I
>>> want to find out, using very safe places, if she can take the basic
>>> skills and develop some general responsibility, then bump it up to the
>>> next level and refuse to let me walk into the street or something. Hm...

>>> My secret fear for the future is that I will inadvertently end up with a
>>> guide dog that does what I tell it to, just because I tell it to...
>>> Probably because of all the people who take it upon themselves to
>>> question Mitzi's fitness (or even ask smart questions in a sensible way)
>>> as a guide, since they thought guide dogs are supposed to be totally
>>> obedient. /lol/ I used to get really annoyed by that sort of thing, but
>>> now I just stare at whoever might bring it up these days in horror, then
>>> burst out laughing. OMG! I would be soooo doomed! /lol/

>>> Tami

>>> On 01/30/2013 10:02 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>> Sometimes I get mixed up about exactly where I am, and tell Ben to do
>>>> something dumb, like turn to cross the street before we get to the
>>>> crosswalk.  He says No, and I insist, and he insists back, and, after 2
>>>> or 3 times, I finally get it through my fat head that this time he is
>>>> right and I am wrong, and I tell him how great he is.
>>>> I know all guide dogs do intelligent disobedience, but do they all
>>>> insist when their silly user persists in wrong-headedness?  Or is this a
>>>> special feature I need to remember to mention, when it comes time for
>>>> New Dog? Actually, I did just tell Seeing Eye to put it in my record
>>>> that I need a dog who insists, but I wonder if it really goes without
>>>> saying.  But then, some things I think go without saying apparently
>>>> don't.
>>>> So, do all guide dogs insist in disobedience, even in small things like
>>>> the right place to cross the street?
>>>> Tracy


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