[nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Sat Jun 8 00:45:01 UTC 2013
Its funny how many folks like to judge!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 7:52 PM
Subject: [nagdu] OFF LIST Re: How long is "successful"
> Yikes! Was that feeling of being blamed at the Convention when Fisher was
> having his problems? I went through that with Mitzi at Convention when she
> took to snarking. Some other handlers were supportive and gave good
> suggestions and stuff. Others... OMG! It was not at all helpful, and some
> was quite offensive. Which made me start to feel defensive and snarky when
> I knew other guide dog users were around, so guess who picked up on that.
> Sheesh! We got more or less settled down by the end, so I didn't totally
> have to avoid other guide dogs for the last couple of days. Then I had to
> do some work with Mitzi to ensure she was fit to be around other guides...
> She is much better now, although if I'm uptight or in pain, then I have to
> remember to be more cautious with her and just jolly her up like the wind
> to prevent the snark. Then again, when I'm super uptight and/or in a lot
> of pain, I'm not fit to be in public, either, so there you go. /lol/
>
> Hope you enjoy Convention while Fisher has a nice vacation. /smile/ Don't
> know if I would bring Mitzi if I could make it... She's much more mature
> now, but that's a pretty high-pressure environment. Would not want to
> spend another few fun-filled days with the snark monster of the universe!
>
> Tami
>
> On 06/07/2013 10:31 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>> OK, this is all good. But for the most part, a hospital does things for
>> and to you, the patient, and you get well or you don't. There are, of
>> course, some things you may have to do in response to what the hospital
>> did, sufch as take our meds. Now, with a dog team, I don't know that you
>> could have a measurement like that. First of all, what would you measure?
>> You train a dog, and on paper and with the trainer, it does a great job.
>> Then you match it with someone. Life happens; the person maybe has a
>> personality that doesn't mesh with the dog; the person doesn't keep up
>> the training like he should; something alarms the dog and she is
>> traumatized. I, personally, have had two dogs with which I was definitely
>> unsuccessful and one that begs the question. But I don't know for sure
>> how that could be handled. I'm not sure how the school could handle my
>> current situation. That is, I do agree it is a problem if all going wrong
>> is the handler's fault. For the first time ever I felt I was being a
> ccused of this at the convention last summer, and this came as a shock to
> me. I may revisit it, too. But I think our relationship is a success. I
> just don't see what kind of raw data could be used, but maybe there truly
> is some. For me, though, I think one of the best ways to determine where I
> want to acquire my dog is by visiting that school and talking to its
> graduates. That's like going to the doctor. You say, "I just love Dr.
> Martin; he is such a fine doctor." Someone responds, "You have got to be
> kidding! I wouldn't go to that doctor again if my life depended on it." If
> I had enough people say that to me about my school, I wouldn't go there
> again. There is a school discussed here rather prominently where I would
> have never gone before. I probably still wouldn't, but I would be more apt
> to do so than I would have 2o0 years ago. That for me is the best
> statistic.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think we're mixing up personal success with statistical success. I'd
>>> agree that, on a personal level, getting your dog to do what you want
>>> with a minimum of effort, and being safe together, constitutes success.
>>> But how do you measure that, if you want broad statistics? The only way
>>> I can think of is to see how long the team stays together. There will
>>> be outliers--people who retired a dog young because of an attack, for
>>> instance, but it's the only way I can figure to measure what I want to
>>> measure. If someone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
>>> Now, maybe you don't care. You're happy with your dog and your school,
>>> and that's all that counts. I can dig that. But I'd also like some
>>> level of assurance that, when I go to class, I have the best chance of
>>> getting a dog I can work with for a long time. Right now, all a person
>>> can do is talk to other people from their school of choice and see how
>>> they've done. I just wonder if there isn't some more objective measure
>>> that could be added into the mix, to give the prospective student
>>> another way to compare schools, and to show schools if their training is
>>> working as well as they would like. After all, the hospital I work for
>>> analyzes data on bad outcomes, so we can do better.
>>> Tracy
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler"
>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 12:42 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, the point is that in my neighborhood, I know where those small
>>>> curbs are at. She does stop at the big ones and whenever there are
>>>> obstacles in the way. But, for me, the little ones where I live are not
>>>> that important so I don't get on Holly to do them. I could have but its
>>>> really not that important. Some folks might not consider that
>>>> successful but, i don't really mind. I do care if obstacles are there
>>>> and if she didn't stop for them! Some folks will tolerate there dogs
>>>> eating things they shouldn't or sniffing other folks for example. What
>>>> I consider successful is that if I want Holly to do something, I can
>>>> get her to do it with a minimum of fuss. If I want her to stop at those
>>>> little curbs, she will! And, if we are somewhere that I don't know, she
>>>> will anyway. I guess success for me is knowing what your dog will do
>>>> when you do something and what your dog knows you will do! And, if your
>>>> dog listens to your commands and you listen to the dog.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer"
>>>> <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:25 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Larry,
>>>>> Your post about your dog not stopping at curbs as a good example of
>>>>> how
>>>>> difficult this is to deal with.
>>>>> Reading your post, I was thinking "I couldn't deal with that
>>>>> behavior". Y
>>>>> Ou feel differently. You love your dog. You and she have a history. I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know your dog, and have no history with her.
>>>>> I'm wondering if the statistics used on marriage and divorce rates
>>>>> would
>>>>> serve as a good model?
>>>>> We all know people who have been married for 60 years and are
>>>>> miserable.
>>>>> Yet, for all kinds of reasons they stay married.
>>>>> Likewise, we all know marriages that ended quickly for any number of
>>>>> reasons.
>>>>> And as with dogs, we all have a friend where we think "How does she
>>>>> put up
>>>>> with *that*".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>>>>> Keeler
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:19 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>> Aggreed! My point is that too many variables exist to have a perfect
>>>>> team.
>>>>> You have to use some kind of continuum scale to measure. And, what
>>>>> success
>>>>> if for one is not the same as it is for another. If you use saftey as
>>>>> you're
>>>>> standard most folks I know at least have that covered.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 10:53 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'd say that even if a team works for one month and does well,
>>>>>> they're successful. I say this because after one gets home, things
>>>>>> could happen.
>>>>>> Dogs get sick, humans get sick, dogs die, humans die, circumstances
>>>>>> change, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just don't think we can put too much of a figure on it. I figure,
>>>>>> though, one can begin to tell how successful a team is after they get
>>>>>> home and work a bit. One can also tell during class if a team might
>>>>>> be successful or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margoa nd Arrow
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>>>> Carcione
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 8:04 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] How long is "successful"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Darla asked how long a team has to be out to be "successful". I'd
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> at least 2 years, just to put a number on it. Or possibly 3; I could
>>>>>> argue either way.
>>>>>> I'd be real curious to see numbers from schools of teams graduated,
>>>>>> and partnerships that lasted 3 years or more. I think that should be
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pretty good indicator as to how well the school is doing. I mean, if
>>>>>> school X put out 500 teams, and 300 of them stayed together, that's
>>>>>> only a 60% success rate, and not so good. But if 400 of them worked
>>>>>> 3
>>>>>> years or more, that's 80% success, which is pretty good.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> on.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
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>
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