[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
National Association of Guide Dog Users
blind411 at verizon.net
Sat Nov 2 02:52:22 UTC 2013
Mike,
Though we may "agree to disagree", the fact is that it is not a
matter of opinion; rather, it is a matter of fact. I have provided the
Fidelco agreement to support my assertion. As my previous message states,
guide dog training programs do not give us the dogs; they are the channels
through which the dog is given. I know you are faithful to Fidelco; however,
when wrongdoing occurs, such faithfulness tends to cloud logic. When the
training program from which I received my first three dogs began to engage
in unjust and unethical behavior, I chose to disassociate with them and find
a program with which I felt comfortable. As consumers, we have not only the
right, but the responsibility to create change by our behavior. Many others
saw the same thing I did and now the program has found the need to shift
focus away from guide dog training. They have gone from nearly 200 teams per
year to only 80. What does that say about consumerism?
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 4:53 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
Marion,
Let's just agree to disagree shall we?
Guide dogs and cars cannot be compared. We don't pay for these dogs unless
we hire trainers and buy the dogs. The schools do. We, or our sighted
friends and families, do pay for the vehicles we drive around so that
argument makes no sense at all.
There are plenty of things that people, both sighted and blind, use on a
daily basis without owning. Like the operating system on your computer for
example. The fact that these schools don't turn ownership over has nothing
to do with the fact that we are blind. That is only an issue because you
decided it was.
I am prior military, everything I used, both in the states and while in
Afghanistan, didn't belong to me. Its that way with every member in the
service and its not because we are incapable of taking care of it or
incompetent. Its to protect the investment made in the equipment. If for
whatever reason, I am in capable of doing things correctly, then the
equipment gets given to somebody who will.
I have met a fair share of incompetent dog handlers and know of some who
didn't take proper care of their dog and maintain the training. Then when
the company tries to intervene to correct the problems and keep them safe
they take it as a personal attack and we end up with situations like we have
here. Just a couple people, who feel like they have been mistreated, who are
now doing everything they can to destroy a reputation.
I know this isn't the case every time. I know you probably have dealt with
people who have been legitimately mistreated but I just don't think that
pushing these schools to agree with you is the right thing to do.
This is my opinion. Feel free to pick it apart and show me all the ways you
think I'm wrong but I don't, and won't, strong arm these schools because of
a few personal problem's. If the issue is actually a big deal and not just a
knee jerk reaction to someone feeling wronged then the school will realize
it when they stop getting clients and returning customers.
Like I said, I'm a Fidelco client and people on list, mostly you Marion,
demonize them because of a couple bat stories. There are a lot more happy
Fidelco clients than not I'm willing to bet. They just don't dare speak up
anymore because of the false reputation for Fidelco that you have helped
build.
Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have actually been
mistreated by different companies. But I also know for a fact, that there
are people out there who have had their dogs taken away for a very good
reason. Not to them, but people who have seen the relationship said it was a
good thing.
Very few people will actually admit to doing something wrong and having
their dog taken away. Stories have a tendency to be blown out of proportion
very quickly. It is not good practiced to just side with the guy dog
handler.
For that reason, I will be waiting until I hear more than just a couple of
stories before I get involved with any of this. I'm not going to push any of
these organizations around and try to force my will on them.
My goal here is not to create contention and cause issues. But I think it is
only fair that we hear both sides of this argument. People can, and will,
believe whatever they want but it is only fair that both sides be
represented here. Not all of us agree with some of these things that are
going on so keep that in mind.
Marian, I do not think you're a bad person and I do not have any negative
feelings toward you so please don't take these emails that way. You are A
person who believes what you do with passion and I think that is admirable
but sometimes I feel like it goes too far.
Again you guys, this is not a personal attack on anybody this is just how I
feel. If anybody wants to discuss it off list I am more than willing to do
so. I am more than open to sharing stories and listening to others. I'm
going to step off of my soap box now and get back to my daily routine.
I hope y'all have a nice day.
Mike
> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<blind411 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> The issue is not one of "handing out pets" or "protecting an investment".
> It is one of dignity, respect, and accountability. Ownership carries
> with it certain privileges, among them the avoidance of arbitrary
> interference by those who fail to recognize the ability of the blind,
> believing their rights preempt those of the blind. No matter how you
> dissect this issue, the unwillingness to transfer ownership is founded
> in an archaic paternalistic attitude that cannot be justified by any
objective evidence.
>
> As Vice President Hingson stated and is our experience in light of
> the numerous instances in which guide dogs have been removed without
> cause, ownership is the only rational policy if one believes blind
> people should be treated equitably with our sighted peers. Though
> Fidelco asserts they transfer ownership after six months, their
> agreement is far short of true ownership. Since when does a car
> dealership have the right to repossess a dog at their sole and
> absolute discretion. I know there are those who will argue that a dog
> is diferent than a car; however, under the law, a dog is property no
> different than a car, in spite of the fact that it is a living
> breathing animal. In fact, following tthis argument to it slogical
> end, how much more attached does one become to a living being that
> offers unconcditional love an acceptance. After becoming attached to
> such a being, should we not have the right to protect ourselves from
> arbitrary, unjust interference from an organization that will result in an
emotional bond being broken without cause?
>
> Fraternally yours,
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789 (Office)
> 888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
> President at nagdu.org
> www.nagdu.org
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 7:20 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>
> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. Its
> silly to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
handler.
> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then,
> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and
> eventually go help someone else.
> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so
> much more for someone else.
> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just
> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs
> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other
> schools to pick from.
> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an
> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
> JMO
>
> Mike
>
>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hannah,
>>
>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what the
>> schools usually mean. The Seeing Eye is an organization that
>> provides ownership. I am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel
>> indicates that Pilot also does give ownership.
>>
>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant full
>> ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within some
>> length of time the school may demand that the guide be returned for
>> retraining or for some other purpose. NAGDU has passed resolutions
>> calling on all schools to provide full ownership of guide dogs upon
>> graduation, and that same position is stated in NAGDU's Guide Dog
>> Consumer Bill of Rights. Most guide dog schools are living in the
>> past and are as a result paternalistic to one degree or another.
>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning against
>> them and which is demanding the same rights given to other citizens
>> in other
> training situations.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Chantel,
>> Thank you for the correction.
>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide
>> dogs? I mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean
>> I'd get to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops
>> working? I'm just curious since I was told that I had to send my dog
>> back to the school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>> Thank you, hannah
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel
>> Cuddemi
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hanna,
>>
>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon
>> graduation from the program.
>>
>> Hope that helped,
>>
>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah
>> Chadwick
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed. I think that
>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they have
>> more funds as well as trainers. I don't think Pilot gives complete
>> ownership, but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns
>> when I applied. Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition
>> to
> what Raven mentioned.
>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed preference,
>> but on the other, I think it is the training that matters the most.
>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog. The
>> work you put in is what you will get out. The more effort you put
>> into your dog will mean more success with your team. When you get
>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6
>> months and a year. As in my earlier email, please feel free to email
>> me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for the Blind.
>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> Hi,
>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an
>> adult dog. As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I
>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally
>> mature, and had established mannerisms. I wanted a golden retriever,
>> and goldens and German shepherds have a better work ethic as adults.
>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service dog
>> programs.
>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance. Students are
>> allotted
>> $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their target
>> weight, the student is given another $100. There is also an
>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular dog's
career.
>> The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GDB gives more
>> financial assistance than this. Grads from that program can explain
>> the
> logistics better.
>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on
>> the person. I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back
>> temperament of a golden, and I would not want to live with the high
>> energy and quirkiness of a typical labrador. German shepherds are
>> very serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>> All
>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond
>> with them properly. All three breeds have double coats, so they both
>> shed a lot. I do not know as much about the other breeds put out by
>> Pilot dogs, but people have success with them, so you would have to
>> ask the handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take longer
>> to find you the right dog and get a class date. I was fortunate that
>> my golden was available so soon after I applied, but I knew that
>> being choosy might mean a longer wait.
>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate the
>> following factors by importance to you.
>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program,
>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, follow
>> up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to meet and
>> keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation ceremony,
>> breeds offered, life stage of dogs issued These are just what I can
>> think of for now, but there are more factors that others will bring
>> to your
> attention.
>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or
>> Guide Dogs of America are options. If you don't understand why
>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon
>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog
>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco,
>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs. Guiding Eyes usually does
>> home-training with returning graduates, but they have been known to
>> approve it for first time trainees.
>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first guide
>> dog at the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.
>> The benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles
>> you will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie
>> care tips from experienced guide dog handlers. In addition, you
>> could develop long standing relationships with other classmates,
>> which was a
> plus for me.
>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my
>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thank you all for your responses. I have actually been leaning
>> toward a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that those
>> types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament. But at
>> the same time, I want to have an open mind and consider what other
>> types of dogs might have to offer. By the way, I love the names of
>> all three of your dogs. Great dog names!
>>
>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>
>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email. I am working with my
>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon
>> campus. As a college student, financial and post-graduation support
>> were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for in a guide
>> dog school. I felt like GDB provided both of these and I really
>> liked their positive training methods as well as the respectful way
>> they treat their handlers. Regarding the breed of dog, I think that
>> ultimately needs to be your decision. Each individual has their
>> preference and people are going to tell you their choice is the best.
>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers. My girl is a lab and
>> I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely energetic and
>> playful, but she's an excellent worker once the harness goes on.
>>
>> Minh
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Welcome to the list!
>>
>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named
> Motley!
>>
>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>
>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>
>> Chantel and Motley.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey,
>> Welcome to the list. I'm working my second guide, Spritz. She is
>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind. She is a black lab; I got her over the
> summer.
>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that was
>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial assistance and
>> after support. Those were two of the major things I looked for when
>> I applied to schools. The training methods (positive vs negative)
>> used in schools also mattered to me. Of course which may vary on an
>> individual and team basis, but I've come to realize that food rewards
>> go a long way. My first dog was from Pilot because I wanted a poodle,
but
> she retired after almost a year.
>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I wasn't as experienced
>> so I didn't have the necessary tools to manage such a high-strung
>> dog. Please email me off-list if you have further questions.
>> Good luck with the application process and all that.
>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>> No problem. I understand that different people have different
>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to consider
>> both positive and negative. Thanks.
>>
>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement that
>> Fidelco has contract issues. The issues are definitely personal and
>> not Fidelco's fault.
>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the last
>> three years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way. There
>> are a certain handful of folks on this list who have personal issues
>> with Fidelco and tend to be much louder than the people who have
>> good experiences.
>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are aware
>> of the rules. That is the case with any guy dog school. Just keep
>> an open mind.
>> Every school has good and bad things. Every school has someone who
>> loves them and hates them. I'd recommend that you decide what breed
>> you want, see what school meets your needs the best, and go forward
>> from there.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D. Keeler"
>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>> wrote:
>>
>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>> Before
>> you
>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract. The other
>> thing, schools when possible do give you a choice. Now always can
>> they accomidate but usually they can. I went to Pilot because I
>> wanted a poodle. They breed them down there. However, I ended up
>> qith a labradoodle wich is almost as good! As for training at school
>> or at home, I think it would be more useful to train at hom. But,
>> if you know your neighborhood, it doesn't matter as much.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am new to the list. I currently travel with a cane, but am very
>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>> I
>> am
>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best for me.
>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>> Does
>> anyone
>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially
>> negative experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be
>> interested to hear your feedback. Also, I noticed that Fidelco does
>> training at your residence, whereas the other schools bring you to
>> their campuses for training. I would like to hear perspectives
>> about the disadvantages and advantages of each of these methods of
> training.
>>
>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as guides,
>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds. I would like to know if
>> schools give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired with.
>> Also, I
>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of
>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there are
>> distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed does
>> not generally possess. Of course, I am sure all dogs are unique,
>> even within a breed type.
>>
>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email. Thanks in advance
>> for any insight that you can provide.
>>
>> Shickeytha
>>
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>> --
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>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
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