[nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Sat Nov 2 15:53:34 UTC 2013


Somebody posted that the schools don't have to tell us what happens to our
dogs. I was disagreeing. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 11:47 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools

What do you mean the schools may not have to do anything. I think I missed
something. It is a little painful, and besides, just natural curiosity sets
in. It didn't upset me tons, but I think of him some and wonder where he is.
I would imagine he is still living.

CL

On Nov 2, 2013, at 10:30 AM, "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not knowing what happened to a dog would be heartbreaking. Just 
> because a dog doesn't work out, either for a specific handler or in 
> general doesn't mean we don't still care about these dogs. The schools 
> may not "have" to do anything, but not doing so seems incredibly cruel.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. 
> Keeler
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2013 12:34 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> 
> Well Nicole, if the dog has to go back for some reason, I don't think 
> they have to tell you what happened to the dog. It would be nice if 
> they did but my assumption would be that for some reason the dog, the 
> person or both didn't work out. Many folks might even be wanting another
guide.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 11:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
> 
> 
>> Raven hit the nail right on the head:
>> "Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their 
>> ability to properly work and care for the animal?"
>> If the dog does not work out, then the handler should have some say 
>> in what happens to the dog. Yes, I agree that the handler could be 
>> encouraged to return the dog for evaluation for placement with 
>> someone else if the dog is under a certain age, but the handler 
>> should then be told what happens to the dog and also have the choice 
>> of taking the dog back as a pet if it does not work out. Also, the 
>> flip side of this is that, if the person plans to get another dog 
>> soon, keeping the other dog as a pet may not be such a good idea 
>> because of jealousy and confusion between the two dogs.
>> I think that the only two times that a school should be able to take 
>> a dog is if the handler is abusing or neglecting the dog or if the 
>> dog is very clearly not able to guide but the handler still insists 
>> on working the dog.
>> In the case of neglect or abuse, I think that it should be some third 
>> party that investigates and ultimately removes the dog so that there 
>> is not any bias by the school. The second case, of course, is often 
>> hard to define and is often misinterpreted by the schools.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven 
>> Tolliver
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:08 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>> 
>> Mike, schools cannot afford to give out pets. But the other side of 
>> the coin is people unjustly having their guide dogs repossessed. I 
>> say we push for the lesser of two evils, which is give full ownership 
>> upon graduation, and risk giving out pets for the sake of guide dog 
>> handlers not having dogs wrongfully repossessed.
>> I have heard of and seen several instances where a guide dog was 
>> wrongfully repossessed. A buddy of mine had his guide dog repossessed 
>> because she was having chronic ear infections under his care. For 
>> three months, he communicated back and forth with the school to try 
>> to straighten out the problem, but they wanted the dog back because 
>> they did not want the reputation of issuing unhealthy dogs.
>> Now, that is just wrong on so many levels. Rather than work with him 
>> to resolve the issue and keep his hardworking partner, they wanted to 
>> cover their own ass. This shows a complete lack of trust, and it also 
>> shows that they do not value their clients. An issue this minor is 
>> something that can be resolved over time with a bit of research and 
>> collaboration. But instead of concerning themselves with offering 
>> guidance and assistance  to a graduate, they were worried about their 
>> own reputation!
>> Why would you bother to give someone a dog if you questioned their 
>> ability to properly work and care for the animal? Perhaps schools 
>> should do more to get to know potential clients and their lifestyles 
>> before placing dogs with people. That is a better solution than 
>> giving us dogs, then monitoring us like parents to make sure we're 
>> doing everything according to the school's standards, and taking away 
>> dogs when we make mistakes or are having problems.
>> 
>> On 11/1/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I think ownership might encourage the school to do a better job of 
>>> matching
>>> 
>>> dogs.  Also I'm thinking transferring ownership to the handler might 
>>> get the
>>> 
>>> school to do a very thorough job of investigating the student before 
>>> giving
>>> 
>>> them a dog.  That should cut down on the number of people who aren't 
>>> suited
>>> 
>>> to a guide dog getting one in the first place.
>>> 
>>> It would be interesting to compare schools with ownership to those 
>>> who never
>>> 
>>> give ownership to see the differences in these factors.
>>> 
>>> Julie
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mike
>>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 6:20 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] [NAGDU] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>> 
>>> A lot of time and money gets infested into producing a guide dog. 
>>> Its silly
>>> 
>>> to try and pressure companies into giving complete ownership to the
>> handler.
>>> 
>>> If it doesn't work out in six months or a year or even two then, 
>>> depending on reason, that dog could go back to the company and 
>>> eventually go help someone else.
>>> Why turn such an investment into someone's pet when it could be so 
>>> much more
>>> 
>>> for someone else.
>>> I personally don't agree with the bill of rights. People should just 
>>> understand their school of choice. Its not our decision. Its theirs 
>>> as a business. If we as consumers don't like it then we have other 
>>> schools to pick from.
>>> If i ran a school id probably do the same thing. Its protecting an 
>>> investment and smaller schools cant afford to hand out pets.
>>> JMO
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:45 PM, "Michael Hingson"
>>>> <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hannah,
>>>> 
>>>> The problem is that what we define as full ownership is not what 
>>>> the schools usually mean.  The Seeing Eye is an organization that 
>>>> provides ownership.
>>>> 
>>>> I
>>>> am not as familiar with Pilot, but Chantel indicates that Pilot 
>>>> also does give ownership.
>>>> 
>>>> Other schools have different contracts that may or may not grant 
>>>> full ownership, and that may require that if a guide retires within 
>>>> some length of time the school may demand that the guide be 
>>>> returned for retraining or for some other purpose.  NAGDU has 
>>>> passed resolutions calling on all schools to provide full ownership 
>>>> of guide dogs upon graduation, and that same position is stated in 
>>>> NAGDU's Guide Dog Consumer Bill of Rights.  Most guide dog schools 
>>>> are living in the past and are as a result paternalistic to one 
>>>> degree
> or another.
>>>> They do not see the tide of aware consumers which is turning 
>>>> against them and which is demanding the same rights given to other 
>>>> citizens in other training situations.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:22 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] ownership RE: Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> Chantel,
>>>> Thank you for the correction.
>>>> Can someone please define complete ownership when it comes to guide 
>>>> dogs?
>>>> 
>>>> I
>>>> mean, if we get complete ownership, then doesn't that mean I'd get 
>>>> to keep the dog no matter the age when that dog stops working? I'm 
>>>> just curious since I was told that I had to send my dog back to the 
>>>> school because she didn't work out but she was only 3.
>>>> Thank you, hannah
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chantel 
>>>> Cuddemi
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:08 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> Hanna,
>>>> 
>>>> Pilot Dogs gives us graduates full ownership of our dogs upon 
>>>> graduation from the program.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope that helped,
>>>> 
>>>> Chantel and Motley of Pilot Dogs.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hannah 
>>>> Chadwick
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, GDB can provide more financial help if needed.  I think that 
>>>> larger schools tend to have more follow-up services because they 
>>>> have more funds
>>>> 
>>>> as
>>>> well as trainers.  I don't think Pilot gives complete ownership, 
>>>> but I could be wrong since that wasn't one of my concerns when I
applied.
>>>> Pilot also trains boxers and Dobermans in addition to what Raven 
>>>> mentioned.
>>>> On one hand I think that it is important to have a breed 
>>>> preference, but on the other, I think it is the training that matters
the most.
>>>> There are good things and bad things about every breed of dog.  The 
>>>> work you put in is what you will get out.  The more effort you put 
>>>> into your dog will mean more success with your team.  When you get 
>>>> your dog, please remember that the bonding process takes between 6 
>>>> months and a year.  As in my earlier email, please feel free to 
>>>> email me off list if you want to know about Pilot or Guide Dogs for 
>>>> the Blind.
>>>> Good luck, Hannah and Spritzie
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:39:50 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I attended Guiding Eyes for the Blind primarily because I wanted an 
>>>> adult dog.  As a person who never owned or handled a dog before, I 
>>>> thought it important to have a dog that was physically and mentally 
>>>> mature, and had established mannerisms.  I wanted a golden 
>>>> retriever, and goldens and German shepherds have a better work 
>>>> ethic as
> adults.
>>>> This has been proven in studies of guide dog programs and service 
>>>> dog programs.
>>>> I also chose GEB because of the financial assistance.  Students are 
>>>> allotted $200 annually, and if your dog is 10 pounds within their 
>>>> target weight, the student is given another $100.  There is also an 
>>>> emergency fund, but it can only be used once during a particular 
>>>> dog's career.  The GDB grads can correct me if I'm wrong, but I 
>>>> think GDB gives more financial assistance than this.  Grads from 
>>>> that program can explain the logistics better.
>>>> As far as what breed of dog is best at guide work, that depends on 
>>>> the person.  I have always adored the gentle nature and laid-back 
>>>> temperament
>>>> 
>>>> of
>>>> a golden, and I would not want to live with the high energy and 
>>>> quirkiness of a typical labrador.  German shepherds are very 
>>>> serious about their work, but they have high energy requirements.
>>>> All
>>>> three breeds are extremely loving, loyal and obedient if you bond 
>>>> with them properly.  All three breeds have double coats, so they 
>>>> both shed a lot.
>>>> I
>>>> do not know as much about the other breeds put out by Pilot dogs, 
>>>> but people have success with them, so you would have to ask the 
>>>> handlers of poodles, dobermans, and Vieszlas.
>>>> You have to decide for yourself what you like or don't like in a dog.
>>>> And the personality is just as, if not more, important than breed.
>>>> Also, know that if you are picky about breed that it may take 
>>>> longer to find you the right dog and get a class date.  I was 
>>>> fortunate that my golden was available so soon after I applied, but 
>>>> I knew that being choosy might mean
>>>> 
>>>> a
>>>> longer wait.
>>>> To determine which school might be right for you, you should rate 
>>>> the following factors by importance  to you.
>>>> location of school, home-training program, special needs program, 
>>>> cost of the program, length of program, financial assistance, 
>>>> follow up services, ownership policy, training methods, choice to 
>>>> meet and keep in touch with your dog's puppy-raisers, graduation 
>>>> ceremony, breeds offered, life stage
>>>> 
>>>> of
>>>> dogs issued These are just what I can think of for now, but there 
>>>> are more factors that others will bring to your attention.
>>>> If ownership is important to you, the Seeing Eye, Pilot Dogs, or 
>>>> Guide Dogs of America are options.  If you don't understand why 
>>>> ownership is important to some people, then I will explain upon 
>>>> request, because it is a very serious issue that every service dog 
>>>> handler should have proper understanding of.
>>>> If home-training is important to you this is offered by Fidelco, 
>>>> Guiding Eyes, and a couple other programs.  Guiding Eyes usually 
>>>> does home-training with returning graduates, but they have been 
>>>> known to approve it for first time trainees.
>>>> I would encourage you to complete your training with your first 
>>>> guide dog
>>>> 
>>>> at
>>>> the school if it is at all possible and convenient for you.  The 
>>>> benefit is that you will not likely feel alone in the struggles you 
>>>> will experience, and also, you can get great training and doggie 
>>>> care tips from experienced guide dog handlers.  In addition, you 
>>>> could develop long standing relationships with other classmates, 
>>>> which was a plus for me.
>>>> Good luck, and email me off list if you want to know more about my 
>>>> Guiding Eyes experience.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/31/13, Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Thank you all for your responses.  I have actually been leaning 
>>>> toward  a lab or a golden because I have heard in the past that 
>>>> those types of dogs are very loyal and have an even temperament.
>>>> But at the same  time, I want to have an open mind and consider 
>>>> what other types of  dogs might have to offer.  By the way, I love 
>>>> the names of all three of  your dogs.  Great dog names!
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/31/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Shickeytha,
>>>> 
>>>> I want to echo what Hannah said in her email.  I am working with my 
>>>> first guide, Viva from Guide Dogs for the Blind on their Oregon 
>>>> campus.  As a college student, financial and post-graduation 
>>>> support were the two most critical aspects that I was looking for 
>>>> in a guide dog school.  I felt like GDB provided both of these and 
>>>> I really liked  their positive training methods as well as the 
>>>> respectful way they  treat their handlers.
>>>> Regarding
>>>> the breed of dog, I think that  ultimately needs to be your decision.
>>>> Each
>>>> individual has their  preference and people are going to tell you 
>>>> their choice is the best.
>>>> GDB only works with labs and golden retrievers.  My girl is a lab 
>>>> and I couldn't have asked for a better dog; she's extremely 
>>>> energetic and playful, but she's an excellent worker once the 
>>>> harness
> goes on.
>>>> 
>>>> Minh
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/31/13, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Welcome to the  list!
>>>> 
>>>> I am working my first dog from Pilot Dogs, a standard poodle named 
>>>> Motley!
>>>> 
>>>> We've been a team for a year and eight months.
>>>> 
>>>> Good luck with what school you choose!
>>>> 
>>>> Chantel and Motley.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick <sparklylicious at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey,
>>>> Welcome to the list.  I'm working my second guide, Spritz.  She  is 
>>>> from Guide Dogs for the Blind.  She is a black lab; I got her  over 
>>>> the summer.
>>>> Since I'm a college student and having had a previous dog that  was 
>>>> very high-maintenance, I knew I would need financial  assistance 
>>>> and after support.  Those were two of the major things  I looked 
>>>> for when I applied
>>>> 
>>>> to
>>>> schools.  The training methods  (positive vs negative) used in 
>>>> schools also mattered to me.  Of  course which may vary on an 
>>>> individual and team basis, but I've  come to realize that food 
>>>> rewards go a long way.  My first dog was from Pilot because I 
>>>> wanted a poodle, but she retired after  almost a year.
>>>> My training experience at Pilot was good, but I  wasn't as 
>>>> experienced so
>>>> 
>>>> I
>>>> didn't have the necessary tools to  manage such a high-strung dog.
>>>> Please
>>>> email me off-list if you  have further questions.
>>>> Good luck with the application process  and all that.
>>>> Best, Hannah and Spritz
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Shickeytha Chandler <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog  Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 14:08:20 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> No problem.  I understand that different people have different 
>>>> experiences and perspectives, and I think it is important to 
>>>> consider  both positive and negative.  Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> On 10/31/13, Mike <blinkin4342 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As a Fidelco client I completely disagree with the statement  that 
>>>> Fidelco  has contract issues.  The issues are definitely personal 
>>>> and not Fidelco's  fault.
>>>> I have had nothing but good experiences with Fidelco over the  last 
>>>> three  years and I know a lot of people who feel the same way.
>>>> There are a certain  handful of folks on this list who have 
>>>> personal issues with  Fidelco and tend  to be much louder than the 
>>>> people who have good experiences.
>>>> You should definitely read the contract to make sure you are  aware 
>>>> of the  rules.  That is the case with any guy dog school.  Just 
>>>> keep an  open mind.
>>>> Every school has good and bad things.  Every school has someone who 
>>>> loves  them and hates them.  I'd recommend that you decide what 
>>>> breed you want, see  what school meets your needs the best, and go 
>>>> forward from  there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 12:18 PM, "Larry D.  Keeler"
>>>> <lkeeler at comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> First, watch out for Fidelco! They have contract issues.
>>>> Before
>>>> you
>>>> decide, make sure you read and understand the contract.  The  other 
>>>> thing,  schools when possible do give you a choice.  Now always can 
>>>> they accomidate  but usually they can.  I went to Pilot because I 
>>>> wanted a  poodle.  They  breed them down there.  However, I ended 
>>>> up qith a labradoodle  wich is  almost as good! As for training at 
>>>> school or at home, I think it  would be  more useful to train at hom.
>>>> But, if you know your  neighborhood, it  doesn't matter as much.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shickeytha Chandler"
>>>> <shickeytha at gmail.com
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:44 AM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Schools
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello all,
>>>> 
>>>> I am new to the list.  I currently travel with a cane, but am  very 
>>>> seriously considering getting a guide dog in the near future.
>>>> I
>>>> am
>>>> doing research on guide dog schools to see which might be best  for me.
>>>> I am considering Fidelco, Guiding Eyes and the Seeing Eye.
>>>> Does
>>>> anyone
>>>> on this list have either particularly positive or especially 
>>>> negative  experiences with any of these schools? If so, I would be 
>>>> interested to  hear your feedback.  Also, I noticed that Fidelco 
>>>> does training  at your  residence, whereas the other schools bring 
>>>> you to their campuses  for  training.  I would like to hear 
>>>> perspectives about the  disadvantages  and advantages of each of 
>>>> these methods of training.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, I know that various types of dogs are trained as  guides, 
>>>> ranging from labs to German Shepherds.  I would like to know if 
>>>> schools  give you a choice as to what type of dog you are paired 
>>>> with.
>>>> Also, I
>>>> would be interested to hear from anyone who has worked with dogs of  
>>>> various kinds; I'd like to know your thoughts as to whether there 
>>>> are  distinct qualities that one breed possesses that another breed  
>>>> does  not generally possess.  Of course, I am sure all dogs are  
>>>> unique, even  within a breed type.
>>>> 
>>>> I know that is a lot of questions for one email.  Thanks in advance 
>>>> for  any insight that you can provide.
>>>> 
>>>> Shickeytha
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in the 
>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>> vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on 
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.
>>>> Lawrence
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> --
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>>>> 
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>> 
>> --
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