[nagdu] When an Entity May not Make an Inquiry

Fri Apr 4 16:18:53 UTC 2014

Good for you, Chasity, for sticking to your guns and for taking the 
effort to get the situation resolved! I've found that access issues over 
ID or whatever are much more difficult and aggravating when others have 
been showing ID instead of relying on the law. Sigh.

Over here, where there aren't a lot of folks showing their ID cards all 
over the place, I've been happily free of the problem. Whew!

Then, not too long ago, a restaurant hostess asked me for papers. It had 
been so long, I didn't know she was talking to me. /lol/ Also, "papers" 
isn't a request I had heard before. I wonder where that term comes from? 
I had a picture of me lugging around a briefcase everywhere. /lol/ I was 
able to talk my way through that one and coach the young woman on the 2 
questions once she had checked with her manager to see what to do. Then 
we talked to the manager a bit after we sat down to see how he was 
educating his staff. He knew the right way and had talked to the 
hostess, so I didn't have to agitate further. Then a customer who had 
been watching the whole thing (weren't they all?) came to talk to us for 
awhile... Something to do with service dogs, but she was elderly and had 
a pretty soft voice and I had a head cold, so I'm not sure what. We had 
a pleasant chat anyway, but I had that traveling circus feeling I have 
not missed by generally being able to walk into a place and do my 
business without all the extra hassle.

Tami

On 04/04/2014 02:05 AM, Chasity Jackson wrote:
>     I recently experienced an incident on March 14 when a hotel demanded
> to see my papers. I stated that I did not have any papers. I had a
> certification card, but they didn't need to know that. Instead, I handed
> them a copy of the Missouri state law. The lady sounded like she was
> doing me a favor and stated that she would make an exception just this
> once. Then she stated that my dog was not allowed near the indoor pool
> area because people might be allergic to him. I did not do anything that
> day. When I got home, I contacted Choice Hotels. Each hotel is
> independently operated. My complaint to the corporate office was
> transferred to the cocky hotel manager. She stated that she didn't know
> what the problem was, that people were always more than willing to hand
> over their papers. I argued with her stating that they were violating
> the ADA. She said she would contact the owner, but the policy would not
> change. I stated that she would be facing action due to their
> unwillingness to comply with the ADA. She was cocky and said okay.
>
> I then contacted the corporate office again. I was firm and insistant.
> The hotel I stayed in was a Quality Inn, but it is owned by Choice
> Hotels. So I told them they could receive a fine, or worse, and that
> they could get a lot of bad publicity for their actions. The lady gave
> me an executive number to call, which I did. I spoke to a man named Rob.
> He contacted the cocky hotel manager Michelle, and they were on the
> phone for over 40 minutes. She finally reluctantly decided to train her
> staff on the proper way to handle the situation. Due to the fact that I
> don't think she will truly train everyone thoroughly, I have filed a
> complaint with the Missouri Commission on Human Rights. I want to have
> them investigated and I want them to receive a thorough training on what
> they cannot ask for and what they cannot do.
>
> Chasity
>
> -----Original Message----- From: National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:47 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: [nagdu] When an Entity May not Make an Inquiry
>
> Dear All,
> An important element of this discussion about certification,
> documentation, identification, etc. is another provision which is often
> overlooked. We have shared that the entity may make certain inquiries, such
> as "Is this a service animal required because of a disability?"; however,
> the law also says that even such an inquiry may not be made in certain
> circumstances. This provision states, " Generally, a public entity
> [accommodation] may not make these inquiries about a service animal when it
> is readily apparent that an animal is trained to do work or perform tasks
> for an individual with a disability (e.g., the dog is observed guiding an
> individual who is blind or has low vision, pulling a person's
> wheelchair, or
> providing assistance with stability or balance to an individual with an
> observable mobility disability)." (28 CFR § 35.136(f) & 28 CFR § 36.302(6))
>
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 11:07 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A CCB resolution on changes to have certificationfor
> service dogs
>
> There's a couple of things. First, most of us on this list probably have
> some sort of certification, but I know that there are at least six,
> probably
> more like ten, maybe even more, owner trainers on this list who don't have
> any type of certification for their dogs. Second, do you really want people
> to be able to just pop up and demand to see your certification, even if
> your
> dog is behaving well and obviously doing her job? I know that it seems
> silly
> for someone to question a perfectly well behaved dog who is working, but I
> assure that there are people out there who will do that because they don't
> like dogs or because they want to give the blind person a hard time or
> because what have you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 12:59 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A CCB resolution on changes to have certificationfor
> service dogs
>
> Forgive me... I don't understand the problem with having papers?
> I have a picture ID card that my school made, and I always carry it in my
> purse, along with a signed paper from the school saying that we completed
> the training.  I have never been asked for it, but I don't see a problem...
> what am i not understanding?
>
> As for fury... perhaps on some level you are right... but my mother is a
> difficult individual, so I am sure there are undercurrents here...
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:49:42 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A CCB resolution on changes to have certification for
> service dogs
>
> Papers?! Where are your papers?! No thanks!
>
> Also, yes, you're overreacting. Certification as a therapy dog of that sort
> isn't the same at all as service dog access, nor can it be extended or
> passed off as such, at least not in the US. And I think that US laws are
> probably a bit more liberal than Canadian provincial ones. You have nothing
> to worry about, and your fury is misdirected.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or (814) 431-0962
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2014, at 3:21 PM, Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes you are. The dog will help people. Your mom is clear in the goals
>> and
> her dog will have behavioral standards it will have to meet. The kids will
> be learning to read to a being that won't criticize them in any way. Some
> may develop a love of reading or a love of dogs. Some may just remember the
> nice lady who cared enough to show up at school with her dog. Why are
> you so
> upset?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, Daryl Marie <crazymusician at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> I am at this point furious with my mother.  She is wanting to "license"
> her Bouvier dog as a "service dog" to be able to go into schools and
> libraries to have kids read to him... or something. It's great for their
> self-esteem!
>>>
>>> Granted he is a reasonably well-behaved dog (as evidenced by the
>>> grand
> total of 12 hours I spent with him).. but this just makes me mad!  Am I
> overreacting? I don't know....
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 12:55:33 -0600 (MDT)
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A CCB resolution on changes to have
>>> certification
> for    service dogs
>>>
>>> Oh boy... I don't even know where to start.
>>> All I can say is, that if these people hope to change the law to fall
>>> in
> line with this resolution, they're going to have one heck of a fight on
> their hands.
>>> I'm not keen on some schmuck at walmart being able to demand some
>>> kind of
> paperwork from me with who knows what kind of personal information on it to
> prove something.  The law already has outlined the things a person can ask,
> and a service animal can be judged by its behavior, and if someone puts
> enough time into training their pet so that it is as well behaved as a
> service dog, frankly I don't care if it's in public.
>>> The key here is task training, and if dogs are behaving badly, are
>>> not
> house trained, are being disruptive, then as outlined in the law, the owner
> can be, and should be, asked to remove the dog.
>>> Lastly, if anyone finds a self trained service dog, do let me know!
>>> I'd
> sure would love a dog who could train itself.  Would save me a ton of work!
>>>
>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 1:44 PM, "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here is something that will impact guide dog users and service dog
>>>> users
> that I got on another list.
>>>>
>>>> This resolution to be presented at the CCB convention in California
>>>> was
> drafted to address the problems of fake service dogs.  What do you all
> think?  Could this be a remedy to the problem of people passing off their
> pets as service dogs in places of public accomidation?  I wonder if this
> may
> be the only was or is there another way.
>>>>
>>>> Here it is pasted below:
>>>>
>>>> Whereas: Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act defines
>>>> the rights of people with disabilities to access places of public
>>>> accommodation, and
>>>>
>>>> Whereas: These access rights are extended to service animal handlers
>>>> as defined in the 2011 ADA Accessibility Guidelines, and
>>>>
>>>> Whereas: These service animal access rights are also guaranteed by
>>>> numerous state and local statutes, and
>>>>
>>>> Whereas, Due to weaknesses in the relevant legislation and the
>>>> general ignorance that exists about the legal definition of service
>>>> animals and of their access rights, there exists an epidemic of
>>>> persons fraudulently bringing their pets into places of public
>>>> accommodation under the pretext that they are service animals, and
>>>>
>>>> Whereas, The presence and bad behavior of fake service animals in
>>>> places of public accommodation places the access rights of
>>>> legitimate service animal handlers at risk, Therefore be it
>>>>
>>>> Resolved by Guide Dog Users of California meeting at the Arden West
>>>> Hilton Hotel in Sacramento, California on April 12, 2014 that this
>>>> organization shall strive to put an end to service animal fraud by
>>>> actively participating in a coalition of like-minded groups to
>>>> advocate for the following changes in law and to engage in  other
> related activities.
>>>>
>>>> 1. The coalition shall seek changes to ADA regulations and to other
>>>> relevant federal statutes and regulations  as follows.
>>>>
>>>> 1.1. The ADA regulations must be amended to permit providers of
>>>> public accommodations to require service animal handlers to show
>>>> documentation to verify the status of their animals as a condition
>>>> for extending their accommodation rights to their animals.
>>>>
>>>> 1.2. Federal law must permit states and local governments to enact
>>>> service animal licensure requirements to make it easier for
>>>> providers of public accommodations to distinguish service animals
>>>> from pets, provided that such licensure requirements do not impede
>>>> the access rights of service animal handlers and that the licensure
>>>> requirements are no more costly than those imposed on pet owners..
>>>>
>>>> 1.3. Federal law must  restrict  the interstate sale of service
>>>> animal identification products to legitimate service animal training
>>>> programs and to individuals who can provide proof of the status of
>>>> their
> service animals.
>>>> Vendors who fail to follow these requirements must be subject to
>>>> fines large enough to discourage the traffic in fake service animal
> products.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The coalition must develop model state laws and regulations as
>>>> described below and then advocate throughout the nation for the
>>>> enactment of these statutes.
>>>>
>>>> 2.1. States must implement service animal license laws compliant
>>>> with item
>>>> 1.2 above.  These laws must provide for the licensing of animals
>>>> issued through recognized training programs and also provide for the
>>>> licensing of self-trained service animals.
>>>>
>>>> 2.2. States must enact prohibitions on the intrastate sale of
>>>> fraudulent service animal identification products that are
>>>> comparable to the prohibitions described in item 1.3.
>>>>
>>>> 3. The Coalition shall develop and execute an education campaign to
>>>> inform the public about the definition of a service animal, about
>>>> the access rights of service animal handlers and about the negative
>>>> consequences of and the legal penalties for service animal fraud.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frank Welte
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gduc-l mailing list
>>>> Gduc-l at ccbnet.org
>>>> http://ccbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gduc-l_ccbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mardi Hadfield"
>>>> <wolfsinger.lakota at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:48 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] It's a go
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Jewel, good luck in your class.Hope you get that special dog and
>>>>> have many years of partnership.I hope you won't get rained on to
>>>>> much,lol.Have a great time in class. Mardi and Shaman and Neechee.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://wolfsinger-lakota.blogspot.com/
>>>>> http://wolfsinger2-thegoldendragon.blogspot.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> for
> nagdu:
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>>>>> t
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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