[nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools

Mon Feb 17 18:09:02 UTC 2014

if the dog is left in my care I will correct if necessary but not if the 
handler is present. my husband ccorected my first dog when he wanted to 
grab the cat. lo.  He never did that agai;n
On 2/15/2014 3:16 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
> Hi Sheila,
>
> 	But what if the dog you are holding is doing something you know the
> handler wouldn't want; I use as minimal correction as I can, but I won't
> hold a dog lunging at the end of a leash without doing something about it.
> 	I'm generally not in favor of correcting anyone's dog, but, like
> children, if the dog is in my care, part of my responsibility is to keep the
> dog safe, and if it warrants a correction, I'll do it, but I always assume
> the dog needs just a "no" or a slight leash correction.
> Darla & handsome Huck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sheila
> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools
>
> I'm in total agreement here. Everyone should have the time needed to handle
> there own dog. If I need or want someone to hold tres's leash I'll ask if I
> don't ask then hands off please.
> On 2/14/2014 10:56 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>> Tami, I totally agree with what you've outlined.  If my dog is acting
>> up, and I don't seem to be doing anything about it, after a fair
>> chance, feel free to tell me.  But, if you start grabbing my leash, or
>> putting your mitts on my dog, and I'm not so sick you've already
>> called the med techs, then you'd better have on your flame-retardant
>> suit, 'cause you is gonna get blasted.
>>
>> By fair chance, I mean, if my dog is acting up, give me a little time
>> to try to deal with it before jumping in with your 2 cents.
>>
>> I mean the rhetorical, general, you, not Tami or anyone particular.
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 12:01 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Correcting others' dogs WAS Re: Guide dog schools
>>
>>
>>> My husband always adds the dog to the count of people to be seated at
>>> a restaurant... It usually gets a laugh, but I find myself waiting
>>> for the day they actually set a place for her... She wouldn't mind.
>>> /lol/
>>>
>>> Good question about correcting other people's dogs. I've known some
>>> handlers who do that so freely that one wonders how they find time to
>>> manage their own dog. I try to steer clear of them since things would
>>> turn ugly if they tried laying hands on my dog or her leash!
>>>
>>> Here's my general view on run-of-the-mill stuff:
>>>
>>> If I'm being a stupid handler, tell me and let me mend my ways. If my
>>> dog is acting up, back off and let me deal with it. If you observe
>>> something useful while you are letting me deal with my own dog, hold
>>> it until I have the dog in hand, then bring it up for discussion. And
>>> so on.
>>>
>>> When I've found myself wondering if I should intervene in someone
>>> else's handling, it's usually in the matter of sprawling or something
>>> like that. At what point is it acceptable to mention that the dog is
>>> creating problems lying where it is across a busy restaurant aisle?
>>> Is it my job to bring it up, or the restaurant manager's? Is there
>>> some pre-defined tact for bringing up the subject? Um... I never know.
>>>
>>> I've never run into a situation where a dog was out of control so the
>>> handler couldn't deal, but I have wondered what I would do if I were.
>>> Say the dog is just off its nut about something, and the handler is
>>> clearly not strong enough to keep hold of it. Grabbing the leash to
>>> add strength against the pull might be helpful then... Only what
>>> would my own dog be doing if there's that kind of excitement going
>>> on? Even if she's being a perfect little professional, wouldn't her
>>> presence add to the other dog's excitement if I reach out to the
>>> leash? I've decided I would rather not find out. I can't remember
>>> what tale or incident caused me to even consider that scenario, but
>>> I've wondered about it for some reason. Hm...
>>>
>>> What if another dog is actively interfering with me or mine, and the
>>> handler isn't doing anything about it? I still think the first thing
>>> to do is to address the handler, unless there's some urgent need to
>>> deal with the immediate problem. Another good option is to clear out,
>>> since my first responsibility is my own dang dog. Also, if the other
>>> dog is misbehaving because of my dog, the most helpful thing I can do
>>> is remove my dog so the handler can deal without the added stimulus.
>>>
>>> I dunno... I can think of few scenarios in which I might consider
>>> interfering with someone else's guide without their asking, and most
>>> of those are highly unlikely. Ultimately, I am not anybody else's
>>> dog's trainer, and I am not the Guide Dog Police. /smile/ Even if
>>> someone were to ask how to deal with behavior X, I would be more
>>> likely to use my own dog to demonstrate my method than to start
>>> mucking with their dog.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> On 02/13/2014 06:11 PM, Darla Rogers wrote:
>>>> You're silly; I think you should buy him a steak and let him sit
>>>> right up beside eye to eat it. <lol> That does beg the question:  Is
>>>> it ever appropriate to correct another handler's dog?  If so when.
>>>> If not, why not?
>>>> Darla & handsome Huck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> craig.heaps at comcast.net
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:32 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>
>>>> So having Chase sit on my lap during dinner at a restaurant is not
>>>> appropriate?  He's going to be disappointed.
>>>>
>>>> Craig and Chase
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:47:17 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes, we learned this at Guiding Eyes, and we had to keep our dogs
>>>> under chairs at mealtimes and during lectures.  My dog hated being
>>>> placed under chairs.  She would sneakily keep backing up while under
>>>> a chair, and then surprise, she would be in the row behind me.  If I
>>>> tried to fix this by using a tighter leash with her, it sort of
>>>> worked, but she would not stay put.  I do miss my stubbern girl...
>>>> Do remember that sometimes handlers, especially first timers, do not
>>>> realize what their dog is doing after they put them down in one
>>>> position.  It takes us a while to realize that yes, our dogs really
>>>> will move if they are so inclined.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/13/14, Darla Rogers <djrogers0628 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Lynn,
>>>>>
>>>>>           Maybe it is thought by some schools that putting the dog
>>>>> out of the way is a no-brainer, b but newbies need to be taught how
>>>>> to do it; I finally have a dog who will put head under chair, so I
>>>>> can keep nose out of trouble.
>>>>> <giggle>
>>>>> Darla & Nosy Huck
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of L
>>>>> Gwizdak
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:27 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, you'd think the schools would stress putting the dog out of
>>>>> the way.
>>>>> The people from one of the other schools did say their school
>>>>> didn't really stress this or teach it.  Or they were telling me a
>>>>> fib and they really were sleeping throough that lecture!
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship
>>>>> is like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: <barbandzoe at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That was an interesting letter. When I was young, in the 60"s and
>>>>>> 70's.
>>>>>> most all the dogs I met were from TSE. they seemed well behaved
>>>>>> and good in public. But when you said that many schools don't have
>>>>>> the person tuck the dog under a table or chair when out with other
>>>>>> people
>>>>> seems odd to me.
>>>>>> I would think they would have you do that just for safety of the
>>>>>> dog, so he doesn't get stepped on, and for the people around, so
>>>>>> they don't
>>>>> trip.
>>>>>> when I have my pets out with me they are under the chair or table
>>>>>> for just that reason.
>>>>>> Barb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "L Gwizdak" <leg1950 at cox.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:48 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>> Yeah, I'm actually alive! I just don't get much time to post these
>>>>>> days.
>>>>>> We are undergoing massisve changes at our blind center (which I
>>>>>> got started a little over a year ago with some bigotry by board
>>>>>> members) and we are in a Mayoral race here in San Diego.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I have my dogs from The Seeing Eye and I love the place.
>>>>>> Yes, friendly but professional. To really understand the
>>>>>> philosophy and practises of TSE, read Love in the Lead by Peter
>>>>>> Putnam. When you look at it and how society was back in 1929
>>>>>> towards the blind, TSE was REVOLUTIONARY in its approach to
>>>>>> dealing with blind people. It does remind me of an early version
>>>>>> of NFB way before there actually was the NFB. There were
>>>>>> progressively thinking folks both sighted and blind involved with the
> school from Day 1.
>>>>>> We see some of the customs of TSE a bit archaic but it is
>>>>>> understandable when you read the history behind the customs. Now
>>>>>> things are very much less formal than years gone by. We still
>>>>>> dress a bit nicer for lunch but not the dresses for women and ties
>>>>>> and jackets for men anymore. For both sexes, a nice top and even
>>>>>> nice jeans are fine nowadays. At lunch, that's when the school's
>>>>>> whole staff, employees, administration folks, kennel folks,
>>>>>> vetrinarian staff, and visitors gather in the dining room for
>>>>>> lunch. We students use this as a training opportunity as the
>>>>>> dining room is set up like a restaurant than all but the students
>>>>>> and our trainers are already seated and eating when we arrive in
>>>>>> the dining room. We have to work our dogs past their tables to get
>>>>>> to our tables - just like you do in a restaurant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TSE also sees blind adults as we are - adults just like any other
>>>>>> adults.
>>>>>> We are treated as such with respect. We can respect ourselves as
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>> No paternalism at TSE as far as I could see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do see that our training and handling of our dogs a bit more
>>>>>> strict while we are at TSE. Emphasis is on getting our dogs under
>>>>>> control and out of the way when hanging out or in the public areas
>>>>>> of the school.
>>>>>> After we recieve harnesses, we are expected to work the dogs in
>>>>>> harness in all areas except for the student dorm wing. TSE prides
>>>>>> itself on well trained and well behaved guide dogs and our
>>>>>> training to keep this up. It makes us as blind handlers look good
>>>>>> and the demeanor of the dogs looks good and a positive face is
>>>>>> shown to the general public when we all go home with our dogs. A
>>>>>> fantastic compliment is when someone says, "I didn't know there
>>>>>> was a dog in here! How quiet and wwell behaved it is!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think most schools also teach these skills in having a well
>>>>>> trained and well behaved guide. They want their school to look
>>>>>> good to the public as well. But, I think there are some areas
>>>>>> where other schools don't seem to place as much priority on making
>>>>>> sure your dog is out of the way when we are seated at a restaurant
>>>>>> or a meeting. At my blind center, dogs are sprawled ouot behind
>>>>>> people's chairs instead of under the tables or next to the chairs
>>>>>> with the dog's butt under the table.
>>>>>> I've asked people about their training and they said that they
>>>>>> didn't get taught to pay attention to where their dog was. And
>>>>>> some schools have very long leashes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not any smack against other schools. Just observations
>>>>>> with people I'm around who have dogs from other schools.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take care all and before you know it you'll be swealtering in
>>>>>> horrible summer heat and all the snow and ice will be a distant
>>>>>> memory!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship
>>>>>> is like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 4:40 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found the environment at the Seeing Eye very family ish. I had
>>>>>>> my share of personal issues while I was there and the staff and
>>>>>>> trainers were nothing but helpful. The trainer on duty at night
>>>>>>> would often hang around the students. We really got to know our
>>>>>>> specific trainers and I have nothing but good things to say about
>>>>>>> the program and its staff. I did not find it too formal and
>>>>>>> several times I benefited
>>>>>> >from knowing the reasons for some of the rules.
>>>>>>> Aleeha and Dallas
>>>>>>> On 2/6/2014 2:42 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Tracey,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Ravin. I have heard the same things about the
>>>>>>>> Seeing Eye, though I would never say them myself since I have
>>>>>>>> never attended there. I know TSE turns out good dogs, and I have
>>>>>>>> heard good things about the training staff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But yes, I felt like there was a family atmosphere at GEB. On
>>>>>>>> our time off, the trainers would come out and chat with us, work
>>>>>>>> with us, or help to answer any questions we had. It was clear
>>>>>>>> that they were there to work with us and instruct us on how to
>>>>>>>> use our dogs, but they never had an attitude of cold
>>>>>>>> professionalism. They were very friendly, open, and professional
>>>>>>>> in an informal way. Perhaps this treatment is not for everyone,
>>>>>>>> but I loved it when I was there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That actually happened to me. My dog jumped on my bed to lay
>>>>>>>> next to me in the middle of the night, without me realizing it,
>>>>>>>> and the trainer saw this in the morning. I suppose my curtains
>>>>>>>> weren't fully drawn... I thought we were going to be in sooooo
>>>>>>>> much trouble, but the trainer actually thought it was
>>>>>>>> hysterical, and she realized I probably didn't realize what my
>>>>>>>> dog had done. Well, and she knew the dog in question... How she
>>>>>>>> got up there while on tie down, I still do not understand. The
>>>>>>>> point is that the trainers and staff get to know us as people as
>>>>>>>> well as dog users, and they are very chill and encouraging.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Raven.
>>>>>>>>> I have experienced the same level of helpfulness at TSE and
>>>>>>>>> GDB. I guess I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> just don't call it by the same name.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I've been caught by a trainer doing something against the
>>>>>>>>> rules, he or
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> she has not exactly scolded me, but has pointed out why the
>>>>>>>>> rule is in place.
>>>>>>>>> I think that's better than ignoring the transgression. It makes
>>>>>>>>> sure I know
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the reason, but leaves the choice up to me.
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, but I've met plenty of Guiding Eyes graduates who don't
>>>>>>>>> exercise any
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> discipline over their dogs at all, or so it seems to me. I've
>>>>>>>>> also met some
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> who do, but, as usual, it's the slobs who stick out. Maybe I
>>>>>>>>> just run into more GEB users around New York, too.
>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 11:23 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide dog schools
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>> As someone who attended GEB, I believe the family atmosphere
>>>>>>>>>> that most students' experience has more to do with the level
>>>>>>>>>> of attention and help they receive from everyone, not just
>>>>>>>>>> their assigned
>>>>> instructor.
>>>>>>>>>> The instructors, nurses, and kitchen staff were all willing to
>>>>>>>>>> accommodate students' needs and requests. If anyone needed
>>>>>>>>>> help, there was always someone available who could assist you
>>>>>>>>>> or answer your questions. They treated us with the most care
>>>>>>>>>> and compassion, you know, like family members.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, the atmosphere during my class was very casual and
>>>>>>>>>> laid-back.
>>>>>>>>>> None of the staff were uptight about anything. They would eat
>>>>>>>>>> meals with us, joke around with us, and they never talked to
>>>>>>>>>> any of us as if we were below them.
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, while GEB set boundaries for the dogs in dorm
>>>>>>>>>> rooms, the instructors never jumped down anyone's throat for
>>>>>>>>>> not sticking to those boundaries. For instance, a friend of
>>>>>>>>>> mine allowed her dog up on her bed. An instructor visited her
>>>>>>>>>> to talk about something and saw this, but the instructor did
>>>>>>>>>> not scold her about it at all. Another time, my instructor
>>>>>>>>>> walked back to my room with me to look at something. When we
>>>>>>>>>> entered my room, my dog was freely
>>>>> roaming my room.
>>>>>>>>>> Now, we had only been together for 2 weeks. He had left my
>>>>>>>>>> cheese and crackers on the night table untouched, the food bin
>>>>>>>>>> in the open closet untouched, and the plastic waste bin on the
>>>>>>>>>> ground untouched. My instructor did not scold me about this at
>>>>>>>>>> all. She only commented that I had a very good dog.
>>>>>>>>>> So that familial atmosphere has nothing to do with the
>>>>>>>>>> negative things you listed. It is about the way staff interact
>>>>>>>>>> with students. Of course, we associate it with our own school
>>>>>>>>>> because that's the experience we have to speak of. Not because
>>>>>>>>>> our school is hovering over us like helicopter parents, or
>>>>>>>>>> because other schools don't measure up, or because other
>>>>>>>>>> schools are below ours.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/14, Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I saw someone here with a Guiding Eyes dog trot out the old
>>>>>>>>>>> chestnut about how formal The Seeing Eye is. I guess it was
>>>>>>>>>>> formal, 40 years ago, but it hasn't been so for quite a long
>>>>>>>>>>> time. It's amazing how long that idea is sticking around.
>>>>>>>>>>> To me, the atmosphere at TSE was like that at GDB, what I
>>>>>>>>>>> call friendly but
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> professional.
>>>>>>>>>>> I often hear people talk about the "family atmosphere" of
>>>>>>>>>>> their school.
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> never sure what that means. Does it mean people who feel they
>>>>>>>>>>> can poke into
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> my personal business? Does it mean people who gossip about
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else?
>>>>>>>>>>> Does it mean we're us, and they're the big smelly them?
>>>>>>>>>>> None of these things appeal to me. I'm more comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>>> friendly professional--we like each other, but mainly we're
>>>>>>>>>>> here to do a great job together.
>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Raven
>>>>>>>>>>
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