[nagdu] Clicker Training; was: Miniature Guide Horses

[sheila]

ann thank you for the post. I don't know much about clicker training but 
I think if I got familiar with it I would love it. I don't really like 
leash corrections at all and I would use another method if I knew how to 
do it correctly. can you use it with no vision at all? and is it to late 
to use with a foyear old dog?
On 2/23/2014 2:28 AM, Ann Edie wrote:
> Hi, Daryl,
>
> Yes, people frequently want to pet Panda or take her picture.  And they
> often want me to let their small children pet her or have their picture
> taken with her.  They also ask lots of questions about her.  I try to answer
> questions if I have time and to educate a bit on etiquette with regard to
> all service animals.  Panda is not crazy about having strangers stick their
> hands in her face, so I direct the petters to her neck and shoulder if I
> can.  She mostly wants to go on with her work, but she will target my hand
> with her nose and wait patiently until I extricate us from the little or big
> hands.  One thing that is different with a miniature horse guide is that
> often when we enter a store, restaurant, or other public place for the first
> time, the staff and management come over and ask if they can take a photo of
> us to put up on their wall, sometimes alongside the pictures of famous
> celebrities who have visited the business, to show everyone that it is true
> that they had a tiny horse in their place.  The funniest thing is that when
> we're just walking down the street, people will stick their heads out of
> their car windows and yell, "That's a big dog!" or "That's not a dog!" or
> "Look at the donkey!" or "There's a cow!" or any number of other ridiculous
> things.
>
> You asked about clicker training--
> Clicker training is a training method which relies on positive
> reinforcement--what most of us would call rewards--to motivate a learner to
> change his behavior or learn something new.  And it uses a marker signal,
> usually a mechanical clicking sound or a tongue click, to mark the exact
> behavior which is going to be rewarded.  This lets the learner know just
> which of the many things she has done in the recent past has earned the
> reward, and gives us time to reach into our pocket to get a tiny bit of food
> that the learner finds valuable enough to change her behavior in order to
> get, and to deliver that reward to the learner.  The reward or reinforcer
> does not have to be a food treat, but it must be something that the trainer
> can deliver in a short time and in a variety of settings and circumstances,
> and it must be something that the learner finds desirable enough to want to
> change her behavior in order to earn.  Since most dogs, and horses, are
> highly motivated by certain foods, treats are the primary type of
> reinforcers used by clicker trainers.
>
> Quite a few of the guide dog schools in the U.S. now use clicker training as
> part of their training methodology and teach a bit about it to their
> students during the team training process.  For many programs, clicker
> training is seen as just one tool among many in the toolbox, to be brought
> out to teach a specific task or solve a particular problem with a dog.
> Guide Dogs for the Blind in California and Oregon has gone the farthest in
> adopting clicker training as the primary training method used throughout the
> process of raising and training their dogs.  I believe it is now used by all
> their puppy raisers as well as the professional guide dog trainers at GDB.
> I believe they offer classes in clicker training to their students in class,
> but I don't know if they expect all students to use this method for routine
> handling of their dogs over the length of the partnership.  I believe all
> schools in the U.S. are still teaching the use of various types of
> "correction", as well as the use of praise and petting,  to their students,
> as the  routine way of working with their dogs and maintaining the working
> relationship between the partners.
>
> It has been my personal experience that when we use a
> positive-reinforcement-based training method with our animal partners and
> eliminate "correction" (which is another name for "punishment") from our
> training and working relationships, a wonderful transformation occurs in
> those relationships.  The attitudes of both the human and the animal partner
> are transformed.  The animal's stress level goes down because she has a much
> clearer idea about just what the human partner wants her to do and she knows
> exactly how to earn rewards.  She now sees each walk and interaction with
> the handler as an opportunity to perform well-understood behaviors and earn
> rewards which are valuable to her.  The handler is less stressed because she
> is no longer worried about being the policeman of her dog's behavior.  She
> is focused on teaching the dog what she wants her to do, rather than being
> focused on preventing the dog from doing what she doesn't want her to do.
> The new understanding of the handler is that if the dog doesn't perform a
> certain behavior which is desirable to the handler, then it is because the
> handler has not taught that behavior to the animal sufficiently or not in
> circumstances with the level of distraction that the animal is being
> presented with.  This wipes away the beliefs that the dog is "testing" the
> handler or that the dog is being stubborn or wants to be the dominant
> partner.  Clicker training and clicker handling makes each walk with my
> guide a joy for both of us, and once most people have made the switch from
> correction-based training to positive-reinforcement-based training and
> handling, they do not want to go back.
>
> If you want to learn more about clicker training, there are many sites on
> the Internet to explore.  I suggest starting with Karen Pryor's site and
> book, since she was the one who popularized the method and gave it its name.
> Her book, DON'T SHOOT THE DOG, is a classic and a great introduction to the
> theory and practice of training in general, and clicker training in
> particular.
>
> I hope that gives you the information you wanted, and perhaps peaks your
> curiosity about clicker training.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 8:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Ann,
>
> Thank you for that wonderfully descriptive and thorough list of reasons why
> you have a horse.  That's so awesome!  Do people ask to pet your horse
> because she's so cute? I had that yesterday in Wal-mart with Jenny... UGH!
>
> Also, I hear about Clicker training, but am not familiar with the term.
> What is that?
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Fri, 21 Feb 2014 23:47:04 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with
> miniature horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Hi, Daryl and Everyone,
>
> You asked how or why I switched from using guide dogs to working with a
> miniature horse guide.  Well, my decision to work with a miniature horse
> guide was prompted by many experiences and philosophical factors.
>
> First of all, perhaps, was my experience with guide dogs.  After working for
> 9 years with my first, wonderful chocolate Labrador guide dog, I experienced
> 2 heart-breaking attempted partnerships with one male and one female German
> shepherd guide.  I decided that, even in the case of the very successful
> guide dog, the working lifespan of dogs is painfully short, and the
> disruption during the period of the decline of the working guide, the loss
> of that relationship, the time of transition to a new dog guide, and the
> period of adjustment and team building with the new dog guide, were just too
> stressful for me physically, emotionally and in terms of time commitment for
> me to want to repeat the process every few years.  And it is even harder if
> you throw in the occasional mismatch or match with a dog who decides he/she
> really isn't prepared to work full time as a guide.
>
> Second, I am, and have always been, a horse lover.  At the time I got my
> miniature horse, I already owned 3 riding horses and was very involved in
> their care and training.  I knew that horses are intelligent enough to do
> guide work and that many of them have the temperament to do the work.  I
> also knew that horses do look upon the humans with whom they have close
> relationships as members of their bands (families), and do take on the roles
> of companion and guide/protector as needed.  My own Arabian horse, Magnat,
> acted as my guide both when I was riding him and when I was walking with
> him.  I had trained him to stop at changes of footing and elevation and
> before going through doorways or gateways so that I could orient myself and
> make sure the passage was clear.  He was also a wonderful retriever who
> would not only happily pick up grooming tools that regularly flew out of my
> hand while I was vigorously brushing him, but would also tidy up the arena
> by bringing me sundry objects which others had dropped , like whips, hats,
> tissues, and little traffic cones.  And miniature horses have an average
> lifespan of 30-40 years or more, compared with the 10-15 year lifespan of
> dogs, which means you can expect an amazing, long-lasting and continuously
> deepening relationship with one very special animal partner.  Around the
> year 2000 I began hearing reports of the Guide Horse Foundation's training
> of the first miniature horses as guides for blind people, and I was
> intrigued.  I had not known up to that time, that there were horses small
> enough to serve as guides.
>
> Third, through my interests in dogs and horses and their training (obedience
> for dogs as well as guide work, and dressage riding and general management
> for horses) I had become convinced that I wanted a guide animal trained with
> methods which relied on positive reinforcement rather than what is called
> "correction" in the guide dog world.  By the year 2000, methods which were
> based in behavioral science and which relied on positive reinforcement were
> becoming the norm in training dogs as well as most other species of animals
> for all types of management, performance, and companionship/obedience tasks.
> However, guide dog training programs were largely entrenched in the
> traditional methods which relied on correction both during the dogs'
> training and in the relationship between the dog and handler after
> placement.  I had become accustomed to working with my horses and dogs in
> the more positive way, and I no longer wanted to go back to the
> punishment-based methods of the guide dog programs.
>
> Fourth, I was fortunate to be working and sharing a barn with Alexandra
> Kurland, who is the foremost advocate of positive training methods,
> specifically, clicker training, in the horse world.  So when I expressed to
> Alex my interest in perhaps working with a miniature horse guide instead of
> a successor guide dog, she responded with a proposal that we acquire and
> train a miniature horse to be my guide, and that we use clicker training
> exclusively both to train and to handle the guide horse, to which I
> enthusiastically agreed.
>
> So, in the summer of 2001, we started searching the internet for a suitable
> young miniature horse.  We found a good prospect in Florida, flew down to
> meet her, and knew immediately that she would be our little clicker guide.
> Panda came to live with Alex in September, 2001, in the days just after 9-11
> when we were all in a shocked daze, wondering what the world would be like
> in the next months and years.  She definitely proved to be a bright star in
> a time of darkness and doubt.  Panda was just 8 months old when she started
> her training, which was a combination of both basic socialization and guide
> training, and which lasted about 18 months.  She was actually ready to go to
> work full-time earlier, but we didn't want to have her begin her working
> life until she was over two years old.  Panda came to live with me and
> became my full-time guide in the summer of 2003, and she has been the most
> wonderful, consistent, confident, and intelligent guide that anyone could
> hope for.  She just celebrated her 13th birthday, and we have been working
> together for ten and a half years, with the prospect of decades of happy
> partnership ahead of us.
>
> In answer to your question about how guide horses work-- They do all of the
> same guide tasks as guide dogs do, although sometimes they do it a bit
> differently than the dogs.  For example, instead of going under a table or
> chair in a restaurant or on the bus, the guide horse stands beside my chair
> or between the bus seats.  The horses don't sit as dogs do, but they either
> stand or lie down instead.  They do all the usual guide tasks such as
> stopping at curbs and stairs, going around obstacles, changing speed for
> uneven footing or for ice, mud, water, etc., looking out for overhead
> obstacles, turning left and right on cue, monitoring moving vehicles at
> driveways and street crossings and exercising intelligent disobedience when
> necessary, and finding specific places in the environment, such as doors to
> go inside or outside, elevators, stairs, checkout counters, pedestrian
> signal buttons, home, etc.  And yes, they are housetrained and relieve on
> leash and on cue, just as the dogs do.
>
> The organization I mentioned earlier, the Guide Horse Foundation, trained
> the first working guide horse team, Dan Shaw and Cuddles, in the spring of
> 2001.  That organization trained a few more teams in the next couple of
> years.  But as far as I can tell, they haven't been active in recent years.
> All of the active teams that I am aware of, except for Dan Shaw and Cuddles,
> have miniature horses which were privately trained or owner trained.
>
> I hope that answers some of your questions.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daryl Marie
> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:47 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Miniature Guide Horses WAS Cincinnati Family with miniature
> horse service animal, sues city.
>
> Hi, Ann,
>
> May I ask what prompted the change from guide dogs to guide horse?  Who
> trains a guide horse?  Does it guide similar to a dog?  I am very curious!
>
> Daryl
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Edie <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:34:56 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cincinnati Family with miniature horse service animal,
> sues city.
>
> Hi,
>
> FYI, I use the same size plastic bags for picking up after my miniature
> horse guide as I did for picking up after my dog guides.
>
> Also, I keep my miniature horse guide at my property, a privately-owned
> house in the suburbs with a lot not too much bigger than the one mentioned
> in the article.  The town officials in my town as well as the animal control
> officer and the code enforcement people are all aware of the presence of my
> miniature horse guide, and none has given me a hassle about it.  My area is
> zoned residential and does not permit what they call livestock.  (I know
> this because the neighbors and town officials certainly did react quickly
> when my daughter attempted to keep 4 baby chickens she rescued from her 8th
> grade biology class in a pen in our backyard.  That requires a zoning
> variance and the agreement of the neighbors.)
>
> Anyway, I'm not here to support the keeping of any or all of the other
> animals, but my miniature horse at least is considerably quieter than the
> dogs that live on either side of my property, both of which bark incessantly
> at anyone who moves in their vicinity.  And as for smell, I pick up after my
> horse 4-6 times a day and there is never a pile left in the yard, whereas
> the neighbors' dogs are allowed to leave piles in their yards for many days
> before the waste is picked up, if ever.  And--this may be a matter of
> opinion--but horse manure is nowhere near as bad smelling or objectionable
> to pick up as is dog droppings.
>
> My miniature horse is a trained service animal and I have the same right to
> keep her in my home and to be accompanied by her in all places of public
> accommodation as I would if she were a dog guide.  I believe the family in
> this article may not be claiming that the horse is a trained service animal
> for use in public, but rather as a medically prescribed support animal which
> can be kept in the home under the Fair Housing Act.  I have only seen this
> law used in the case of public housing or rental properties, so don't know
> if that law applies to privately owned homes and to town zoning codes.  But
> I have heard of a couple of court cases where the lawyers brought into court
> a miniature horse and a large, rambunctious mastiff or great Dane for the
> court to compare as to which might be more noisy, smelly, and disruptive to
> neighborhood tranquility.  Which do you think would come out on top?
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
>
>
>
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