[nagdu] Why Not Ownership?
sheila
sleigland at bresnan.net
Sat May 3 21:17:38 UTC 2014
when I had to put my first dog down, I did contact the school. My family
automatically thought that step was unnecessary because I had been
making all decisions concerning his work vet care and all other matters
so if I was responsible for these thing the dog was mine and I believe
that this should be true for all guide dog handlers.
On 5/3/2014 4:48 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> Craig,
> As long as we, the blind, see ourselves as recipients or, in a more
> accurate term, beneficiaries, we will see ourselves as powerless, subject to
> the whim of our benefactors. This attitude will lead us to believe that
> those who were so gracious as to give us this wonderful dog, all this
> outstanding training, room & board for 26 days, all the follow-up training
> and advice, and any other value-aded benefits, have the right to treat us in
> a way that is less than dignified. Our benefactors will believe they can
> interfere in our lives, require us to submit our dog's medical records,
> require we feed the dog the food they tell us, call us and demand to see our
> dog in 10 minutes or less, and - should we resist, threaten to repossess our
> dog because they have the right to do so at their sole and absolute
> discretion.
>
> Now, this may sound as if I am being irrational by engaging in
> exaggeration; however, there are training programs who currently hold these
> attitudes and practices. I will admit that GDB seems to treat their
> consumers with dignity and fairness. The question still remains, though,
> "Why not ownership?" The simple answer is they want the power. Again, the
> primary question is "Why?" Are there not other ways in which they can
> deliver services and retain the right, through third party objective
> evidence and authority of law to ensure that the dog and the training
> programs' rights are protected? The answer is rhetorical, as such measures
> are in place!
>
> While on the subject of consumer vs. beneficiary, we must keep in
> mind that the training programs use the blind to solicit funds on our
> behalf. Each year these programs raise hundreds of millions of dollars
> collectively to provide services to us. In doing so, they tell their donors
> they give us this gift of these wonderful dogs, this awesome training, and,
> in many cases, they even assert they give us dignity! The whole concept of
> conferring dignity could take several pages, so let me just address the
> "giving" concept, since the question of whether or not a guide dog confers
> dignity is irrelevant to the discussion of ownership at hand.
>
> When property is exchanged, whether it is purchased or given as a
> gift, the ownership rights to the property are transferred to the recipient.
> Once given, the giver has no claim upon the property, unless the property
> were given in exchange for a promise of a future contractual obligation.
> Only if the future contractual obligation is breached does the giver have a
> right to repossess the property. The most common form of property given in
> consideration of a future contractual obligation is the giving of an
> engagement ring accepted in exchange for the promise to enter into the
> contract of marriage. . Other such exchanges of property given in advance of
> the fulfillment of a future obligation are signing bonuses and financing
> agreements. If one does not begin working or does not pay the finance
> company, the property exchanged prior to the breach of the contract must be
> returned.
>
> Either guide dog ttraining programs believe blind people are capable
> of caring for their dogs or they do not. If they do, they transfer ownership
> upon completion of training. If they do not, they require the blind person
> to prove the ability to do so during a probationary period or whatever
> euphemism they employ to limit the dignity they assert they give us.
> Apparently, we must prove we are worthy of the dignity they will bestow upon
> us so graciously!
>
> The issue of ownership is not, as one writer seemed to imply, such a
> minor issue it does not deserve the attention we give it. In fact, it is
> the most important issue we bring forward as it reflects the fundamental
> belief of the National Federation of the Blind - the real problem of
> blindness is not the blindness but the stereotypes that influence the way in
> which society views us. The ownership issue is, therefore, a reflection of
> the perspective of the training program and this perspective will guide
> every policy, practice, and procedure of that program. If we are first-class
> citizens who are capable of making our way in the world without the
> paternalistic, custodial care of others; if we have the ability to bear and
> raise our children; if we have the capacity to enter into a contractual
> agreement; if we have all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship, wy
> do we need to prove ourselves to a paternalistic training program?
>
> No one has given me the answer to the basic question of what
> advantage does withholding transfer ownership to the blind person afford
> either party that is not provided for by law. The answer the correct answer
> and the one the training programs will not give us is that such a practice
> gives them the right to interfere in our lives without justification, cause,
> or due process. The primary advantage ownership offers is the right to due
> process and, therefore, the freedom from illegal interference. If guide dog
> training programs would not, as they assert, repossess a dog without cause,
> why are they unwilling to afford us the remedies of law? I believe there is
> no other answer than the one I have tendered.
>
> I know this stand will garner a counterpoint discussion. In this
> discussion, I would like to explore the answer to the fundamental question I
> have posed. So, to be clear, I would like to know what advantage the policy
> of withholding transfer ownership of a guide dog upon completion of training
> affords either party that is not afforded by law and its due process. Simply
> restating the arguments that we have the right to go elsewhere if we do not
> like the policy or that the training program is giving us this wonderful dog
> at no cost is not, in my mind, a sufficient response. Ownership is a legal
> agreement and, if the discussion does not address the question, it is not
> relevant. I look forward to reading replies!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 4:27 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
> In fact, GDB did give me something for nothing in a very significant sense.
> Yes, I showed up prepared with my life experience, need for a vision aid,
> and O&M skills. But GDB did not charge me a dime for any of their services
> or for Chase, himself. He came with training, a harness, a starter supply
> of food, poop bags, heartworm medicine, and flea medicine. He came with the
> so far fulfilled promise of ongoing support, both by phone and in person.
>
> None of that was predicated on my ownership of Chase.
>
> To some extent, how GDB made that possible is irrelevant to me. Whether
> they used an extraordinary endowment or ongoing contributions, the result
> was the same for me. I see myself much more as a recipient than a consumer.
>
> Had I paid for GDB's services, I would consider myself a consumer. But I
> didn't. They might call me a client. But the nomenclature does not change
> the substance of my relationship with them. I am grateful for what they
> gave me at no charge.
>
> I have never felt treated as a second class citizen. In fact, just the
> opposite. GDB was solicitous of my every need during my training and
> beyond. At every step, they treated me as if I were traveling first class
> and paid first class rates. As I read through the posts on this thread, I'm
> coming to realize much of it has to do with perception. As Eleanor
> Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." I
> am not a victim. No one has victimized me by withholding ownership of my
> guide. In fact, they have given me an enormous gift, one for which I am
> extremely grateful.
>
> Craig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training program
>> is
>> giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit funds from the
>> general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they are accountable to
>> the public. Donors contribute to training programs because this is a way
>> they can better the lives of those they wish to help, since they have no
>> direct ability to do so otherwise. In short, the training programs receive
>> contributions from the public with the expressed intention of using those
>> funds to enhance our lives. If it were not for the blind and their
>> assertions they are helping us, where would the 6-figure salaries of the
>> CEOs and the less significant salaries of the staff come from?
>>
>> As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training
>> program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is the
>> driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the power that
>> term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class citizens.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> Michael:
>>
>> I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's
>> simply
>> one way or the other.
>>
>> However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school. I went
>> to
>> GDB knowing the ownership policy. I took all the things they gave me for
>> free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would not own the dog
>> for
>> at least a year, if ever.
>>
>> I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where someone
>> hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being for your
>> benefit
>> at no charge. Then regularly comes to provide extended instruction and
>> guidance at my home or work place. I find it hard to complain about the
>> conditions they put on that.
>>
>> I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the dogs
>> for
>> however long they choose. I do not expect them to be infallible in their
>> screening or training. And if they feel they need to retain ownership for
>> a
>> time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.
>>
>> Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism. My sense of
>> gratitude
>> might have overwhelmed it.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>>
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school and
>>> its techniques. You take a chance that all the processes and procedures
>>> of
>>> the school will work for you. There is no guarantee in life. We should
>>> be
>>> judged by the same criteria as others.
>>>
>>> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets. The claim is, they
>>> said,
>>> that they changed their policy simply because school management said it
>>> saw
>>> an increase in dog obesity. So why does such an increase justify how
>>> they
>>> treat dog ownership by the handler? The fact is that it does not.
>>>
>>> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an
>>> environment. Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply here
>>> just
>>> as in any other case. Why should schools have an advantage and an extra
>>> opportunity to intimidate? Schools have misused a lack of ownership by
>>> handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>>>
>>> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic. If the schools
>>> train
>>> properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the incoming student and
>>> later the team performance during training, and if the school personnel
>>> is
>>> confident in its own abilities to evaluate and if the staff has faith in
>>> blind people then granting ownership immediately is a no brainer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
>>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>> I confess I see it differently. The guide dogs schools have invested
>>> tens
>>> of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs. I don't
>>> know
>>> how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board for two weeks
>>> to
>>> me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for free for my use when I
>>> graduated. So, while I have an obviours stake in the dog and my
>>> relationship with him (or her), the school has an incredible
>>> responsibility
>>> for the dog.
>>>
>>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview.
>>> While
>>> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know my
>>> ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the two weeks
>>> I
>>> spent with them for training. If I should prove to be any one of a
>>> number
>>> of things -- incompetent, negligent, cruel, psychotic, neurotic,
>>> probiotic
>>> (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm of the thing) -- what recourse would
>>> they have to rescue the dog from me?
>>>
>>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year. I'm a couple months
>>> away
>>> from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do. It really makes no
>>> difference to me. I'm holding Chase's harness handle every day. I buy
>>> his
>>> food and feed him. I buy the plastic bags and pick up after him. He
>>> sleeps
>>> next to my bed. In real, practical terms, I don't see what difference it
>>> makes.
>>>
>>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the
>>> part
>>> of the school.
>>>
>>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people are
>>>> incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do so
>>>> before
>>>> they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it is couched,
>>>> such
>>>> a policy is paternalistic!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it
>>>> because
>>>> guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind graduates were
>>>> starting
>>>> to do better because the obesity rate is down. Do you think the obesity
>>>> rate
>>>> in dogs should have anything to do with ownership? What I was saying is,
>>>> if
>>>> you have to wait one minute for that reason, then it seems you are being
>>>> treated as if you are not capable of good judgment. My point was that
>>>> people
>>>> with pets don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are
>>>> going
>>>> to
>>>> be obese or not.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem, but,
>>>>> if you looked at the average life expectancy of the breeds that are
>>>>> used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide dog, you would
>>>>> probably find that, between a higher level of physical activity, more
>>>>> attention to weight, and more attention to health in general,
>>>>> service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And yes, being obese is bad
>>>>> for the health of a dog. Obesity is a slightly different problem in
>>>>> dogs than in humans. Humans know that we are going to get our next
>>>>> meal. Even though dogs have been domesticated for a long time, they
>>>>> still go on the instinct that they don't know when their next meal
>>>>> will be and therefore eat anything you put in front of them to the
>>>>> point of even making themselves sick. But, back to my original point,
>>>>> no,
>>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that lots
>>>>> of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, ice cream,
>>>>> whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are obese?
>>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are over
>>>>> fed,
>>>> too.
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot of
>>>>>> pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it as
>>>>>> unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two years
>>>>>> before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>>>> National
>>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader Dogs
>>>>>>> for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of 2007. In
>>>>>>> July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual meeting as
>>>>>>> Vice President of the organization. During our meetings, Leader was
>>>>>>> provided an opportunity to share an update with our membership, as
>>>>>>> has been our custom for quite some time. One of the pieces of
>>>>>>> information Leader failed to mention was their change in ownership
>>>>>>> policy. In August of 2007, I called Leader and spoke with Rod
>>>>>>> Haneline about this apparent oversight. At that time, Mr. Haneline
>>>>>>> advised me that the change in ownership policy was in response to
>>>>>>> the negative attention the case of Craig Miller who kicked his
>>>>>>> Leader Dog, Inky to death in a drunken rage had garnered. There are
>>>>>>> a number of challenges to this explanation. One major challenge is
>>>>>>> that, at the time of the incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for
>>>>>>> more than the two years the new ownership policy provided for. The
>>>>>>> other major challenge is that there is no way to predict such
>>>>>>> behavior and no restriction of ownership would
>>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity was
>>>>>>> brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation, no
>>>>>>> objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever been
>>>>>>> offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because the
>>>>>>> obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence has been
>>>>>>> offered that there is a problem, in spite of the assertion that the
>>>>>>> rates are lower. Though I would like to believe those who tender
>>>>>>> such an argument have evidence to support their argument, as a
>>>>>>> professional who relies upon research to guide my practice,I am
>>>>>>> trained to be skeptical of unsupported claims. As of yet, I have
>>>>>>> seen no evidence of an obesity problem among guide dogs. If there
>>>>>>> was a problem and now the problem is less, let us see the pre-
>>>>>>> post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and those
>>>>>>> who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference between the
>>>>>>> two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would like to share
>>>>>>> with you to drive home the point: 87% of all statistics are made up
>>>>>>> on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>>>>>> Vandervest
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain and
>>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The previous policy that required clients to apply for ownership
>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, this
>>>>>>> problem has diminished as our clients have become more proactive at
>>>>>>> regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, Leader Dog director
>>>>>>> of
>>>>> client services.
>>>>>>> The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they are
>>>>>>> in good
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader Dog
>>>>>>> longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of May 1,
>>>>>>> 2014.
>>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after May
>>>>>>> 1,
>>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>>>> graduation
>>>>> date.
>>>>>>> If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
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>>>>>>> receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester Hills,
>>>>>>> MI
>>>>>> 48307
>>>>>>>
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