[nagdu] "consumer"
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Mon May 5 00:46:40 UTC 2014
I am struggling to understand what this debate about consumer really has to do with dog and ownership, or guide dogs at all. We use services; therefore, we consume them. I think our main concern maybe should be that they are good and fair services.
CL
On May 4, 2014, at 7:18 PM, Nicole Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Just because something is accepted does not mean that it is right or that we
> have to use it. I don't like human resources, either. I don't like consumer
> because the meaning is different from what one would assume based on the
> spelling and the definition of consume. And then we wonder why people who
> don't speak English have such a hard time learning it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:20 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "consumer"
>
> consumer is a business word, used all the time in non blindness, non guide
> dog, non disability environment. I didn't like the term human resources when
> it started being used instead of words like personnel. I thought it seemed
> like being equated with water and power. but it's the accepted term in the
> business world for now. and so is consumer. I guess it confuses me that it
> upsets people but that's because it's everywhere and a very common main
> stream expression.
>
> Sherry
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:10 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] "consumer"
>
> I agree with the person who posted the consumer definition. I loathe being
> called a consumer, as I've said before. Last time this came up, Marion, you
>
> agreed to use a different term. Customer? Client? But here you are again,
> calling us consumers.
> Tracy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 7:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>
>
>> This message is obviously meant to advance a specific point of view.
>> As such, it does not present the whole meaning nor, I would say, the
>> proper
>> meaning of the word consumer. The problem with the definition is the
>> manner
>> in which the information is gleaned. The term is not "consume" the term is
>> "consumer". The other problem lies in the specific use of the term. The
>> term
>> consumer, when used in the field of economics has a specific meaning: a
>> person or organization that uses a commodity or service. A consumer does
>> not
>> consume in the manner this writer puts forth. Furthermore, the writer has
>> only brought forth the information that supports one position. This is
>> understandable, as it is meant to support one position and does not
>> account
>> for an alternative proposition. I am open to other points of view, but the
>> information and the arguments must be relevant and rational. No one is
>> asserting we are consumers because we eat our dogs; We are consumers
>> because
>> we are people that use a commodity or service.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of KARL 8422
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 8:24 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> Yeah, let's look at the whole root of the word "consumer", shall we?
>> con·sume
>> [kuhn-soom] Show IPA
>> verb (used with object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
>> 1.to destroy or expend by use; use up.
>> 2.to eat or drink up; devour.
>> 3.to destroy, as by decomposition or burning: Fire consumed the forest.
>> 4.to spend (money, time, etc.) wastefully.
>> 5.to absorb; engross: consumed with curiosity.
>> verb (used without object), con·sumed, con·sum·ing.
>> 6.to undergo destruction; waste away.
>> 7.to use or use up consumer goods.
>> Origin:
>> 1350–1400; Middle English (< Middle French consumer ) < Latin consūmere,
>> equivalent to con- con- + sūmere to take up (perhaps < *suzm- < *subzm-
>> <
>> *subs- ( e ) m-, equivalent to subs-, variant of sub- sub- + emere to
>> take, buy)
>>
>> Synonyms
>> 1. exhaust, deplete. 4. squander, dissipate.
>>
>> I will never, EVER consider myself a "consumer" and I think it's horrible
>> and tragic that such a nomenclature is being actively touted embraced by
>> such an august organisation. I am not product, I am not data and I am not
>> simply one who takes. The very act of consumption involves taking without
>> balanced return. Disgusting and abhorrent.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Friday, May 2, 2014 12:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> Craig, One paradigm I think we need to shift is that the training program
>> is
>> giving us something for nothing. Training programs solicit funds from the
>> general public as 501(c)(3) corporations. As such, they are accountable to
>> the public. Donors contribute to training programs because this is a way
>> they can better the lives of those they wish to help, since they have no
>> direct ability to do so otherwise. In short, the training programs receive
>> contributions from the public with the expressed intention of using those
>> funds to enhance our lives. If it were not for the blind and their
>> assertions they are helping us, where would the 6-figure salaries of the
>> CEOs and the less significant salaries of the staff come from?
>>
>> As it true with any economy except that of a guide dog training
>> program and some other disabvility services, consumers satisfaction is the
>> driving force. Until we see ourselves as consumers with all the power that
>> term conveys, we will continue to be treated as second-class citizens.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 12:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>> Michael:
>>
>> I understand the points you're making, and certainly don't think it's
>> simply
>> one way or the other.
>>
>> However, when the school accepted me, I also accpted the school. I went
>> to
>> GDB knowing the ownership policy. I took all the things they gave me for
>> free, knowing it came with the stiuplation that I would not own the dog
>> for
>> at least a year, if ever.
>>
>> I don't know of another situation other than service dogs where someone
>> hands over to you a highly trained, living, breathing being for your
>> benefit
>> at no charge. Then regularly comes to provide extended instruction and
>> guidance at my home or work place. I find it hard to complain about the
>> conditions they put on that.
>>
>> I believe the schools have every right to withhold ownership of the dogs
>> for
>> however long they choose. I do not expect them to be infallible in their
>> screening or training. And if they feel they need to retain ownership for
>
>> a
>> time as a check on thier own fallibility, I'm ok with that.
>>
>> Perhaps I'm less sensitive to perceived paternalism. My sense of
>> gratitude
>> might have overwhelmed it.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>
>>
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> I hear you, but the school did accept you and you accepted the school
>>> and its techniques. You take a chance that all the processes and
>>> procedures of the school will work for you. There is no guarantee in
>>> life. We should be judged by the same criteria as others.
>>>
>>> The Leader Dog example is as graphic as it gets. The claim is, they
>>> said, that they changed their policy simply because school management
>>> said it saw an increase in dog obesity. So why does such an increase
>>> justify how they treat dog ownership by the handler? The fact is that
>>> it does not.
>>>
>>> The schools always have recourse to remove a mistreated dog from an
>>> environment. Animal control, the courts, and the law should apply
>>> here just as in any other case. Why should schools have an advantage
>>> and an extra opportunity to intimidate? Schools have misused a lack
>>> of ownership by handlers to intimidate them make no mistake.
>>>
>>> No, not granting immediate ownership is paternalistic. If the schools
>>> train properly, if they do a thorough job of assessing the incoming
>>> student and later the team performance during training, and if the
>>> school personnel is confident in its own abilities to evaluate and if
>>> the staff has faith in blind people then granting ownership
>>> immediately is a no brainer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Craig Heaps
>>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 08:49 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>> I confess I see it differently. The guide dogs schools have invested
>>> tens of thousands of dollars into breeding and training the dogs. I
>>> don't know how the others work, but GDB provided free room and board
>>> for two weeks to me, trained me for free, and provided my dog for free
>>> for my use when I graduated. So, while I have an obviours stake in
>>> the dog and my relationship with him (or her), the school has an
>>> incredible responsibility for the dog.
>>>
>>> They accepted me on the basis of an applicaton and a home interview.
>>> While
>>> I'm sure they did their due diligence, there's no way they could know
>>> my ultimate success or failure wiht a dog in that process plus the two
>>> weeks I spent with them for training. If I should prove to be any one
>>> of a number of things -- incompetent, negligent, cruel, psychotic,
>>> neurotic, probiotic (sorry, I got caught up in the rythm of the thing)
>>> -- what recourse would they have to rescue the dog from me?
>>>
>>> GDB allows me to apply for owership after a year. I'm a couple months
>>> away from that anniversary and I don't know what I'll do. It really
>>> makes no difference to me. I'm holding Chase's harness handle every
>>> day. I buy his food and feed him. I buy the plastic bags and pick up
>>> after him. He sleeps next to my bed. In real, practical terms, I
>>> don't see what difference it makes.
>>>
>>> I tend to think of it as responsible rather than paternalistic on the
>>> part of the school.
>>>
>>> Craig and Chase (who technically belongs to Guide Dogs for the Blind)
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 6:31 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] On Ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is my opinion that the failure to grant ownership upon completion
>>>> of training is founded in the underlying belief that blind people are
>>>> incapable of caring for a dog and must prove their ability to do so
>>>> before they are afforded this fundamental right! No matter how it is
>>>> couched, such a policy is paternalistic!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 9:30 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>
>>>> Well, it does have to do with ownership policy. The implemented it
>>>> because guide dogs were obese; they lowered it because blind
>>>> graduates were starting to do better because the obesity rate is
>>>> down. Do you think the obesity rate in dogs should have anything to
>>>> do with ownership? What I was saying is, if you have to wait one
>>>> minute for that reason, then it seems you are being treated as if you
>>>> are not capable of good judgment. My point was that people with pets
>>>> don't have to wait a year or two to see if their dogs are going to be
>>>> obese or not.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I don't think that ownership is the way to solve the problem,
>>>>> but, if you looked at the average life expectancy of the breeds
>>>>> that are used as guide/service dogs for pet versus service/guide
>>>>> dog, you would probably find that, between a higher level of
>>>>> physical activity, more attention to weight, and more attention to
>>>>> health in general, service/guide dogs live longer than pets. And
>>>>> yes, being obese is bad for the health of a dog. Obesity is a
>>>>> slightly different problem in dogs than in humans. Humans know that
>>>>> we are going to get our next meal. Even though dogs have been
>>>>> domesticated for a long time, they still go on the instinct that
>>>>> they don't know when their next meal will be and therefore eat
>>>>> anything you put in front of them to the point of even making
>>>>> themselves sick. But, back to my original point, no,
>>>> this is not something that has anything to do with an ownership policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 5:23 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Think about it. How many pet dogs are obese? You must know that lots
>>>>> of them are because people over feed the dogs-table scraps, ice
>>>>> cream, whipped cream, whatever. So I ask you, how many pet dogs are
>> obese?
>>>>> Probably they suffer the same problem as people. Many of us are over
>>>>> fed,
>>>> too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 1, 2014, at 7:12 PM, Nicole Torcolini
>>>>> <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't quite understand what you meant. Are you saying that a lot
>>>>>> of pet dogs are obese or not many are obese?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nicole
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 2:16 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is laughable. How many pet dogs are obese? Isn't it as
>>>>>> unhealthy for them? Their owners aren't required to wait two years
>>>>>> before applying for ownership of the dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy Lou
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>> I would like to comment on this message as president of the
>>>>>>> National
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users. As this message states, Leader
>>>>>>> Dogs for the Blind changed its ownership policy around April of
>>>>>>> 2007. In July of that year, I presided at my first NAGDU annual
>>>>>>> meeting as Vice President of the organization. During our
>>>>>>> meetings, Leader was provided an opportunity to share an update
>>>>>>> with our membership, as has been our custom for quite some time.
>>>>>>> One of the pieces of information Leader failed to mention was
>>>>>>> their change in ownership policy. In August of 2007, I called
>>>>>>> Leader and spoke with Rod Haneline about this apparent oversight.
>>>>>>> At that time, Mr. Haneline advised me that the change in ownership
>>>>>>> policy was in response to the negative attention the case of Craig
>>>>>>> Miller who kicked his Leader Dog, Inky to death in a drunken rage
>>>>>>> had garnered. There are a number of challenges to this
>>>>>>> explanation. One major challenge is that, at the time of the
>>>>>>> incident, Mr. Miller had had his dog for more than the two years
>>>>>>> the new ownership policy provided for. The other major challenge
>>>>>>> is that there is no way to predict such behavior and no
>>>>>>> restriction of ownership would
>>>>>> have made a difference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> During last year's meeting, the question about their ownership
>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>> was posed to Leader again and this was when the issue of obesity
>>>>>>> was brought up. Though this sound like a reasonable explanation,
>>>>>>> no objective evidence that an obesity problem exists has ever been
>>>>>>> offered. Now the policy has been changed to one year because the
>>>>>>> obesity rates have gone down. Still, no objective evidence has
>>>>>>> been offered that there is a problem, in spite of the assertion
>>>>>>> that the rates are lower. Though I would like to believe those who
>>>>>>> tender such an argument have evidence to support their argument,
>>>>>>> as a professional who relies upon research to guide my practice,I
>>>>>>> am trained to be skeptical of unsupported claims. As of yet, I
>>>>>>> have seen no evidence of an obesity problem among guide dogs. If
>>>>>>> there was a problem and now the problem is less, let us see the
>>>>>>> pre- post-study evidence! While we are at it, let's also see a
>>>>>>> correlative study of those programs who transfer ownership and
>>>>>>> those who do not so we can ascertain if there is a difference
>>>>>>> between the two groups. Here is an interesting statistic I would
>>>>>>> like to share with you to drive home the point: 87% of all
>>>>>>> statistics are made up on the spot! Of course, that's a cynical
>>>>>> statement, but I think you get the point!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>>>>>> Vandervest
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:56 AM
>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> William and LD Lynard
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>> To: timelord09 at att.net
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:31 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Attention: New Leader Dog Ownership Policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Graduate,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind is announcing that effective
>>>>>>> immediately we are reducing our transfer of ownership policy from
>>>>>>> two years to one year
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> our guide dog clients (with the exception of clients from Spain
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Brazil,
>>>>>>> who follow their local organization's procedures).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The previous policy that required clients to apply for
>>>>>>> ownership
>>>>>> after
>>>>>>> working with their dog for two years was put in place in 2007 to
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> growing number of working Leader Dogs who were overweight or obese.
>>>>>>> "The reason for the change is that over the past seven years, this
>>>>>>> problem has diminished as our clients have become more proactive
>>>>>>> at regulating their dogs' weight," said Will Henry, Leader Dog
>>>>>>> director of
>>>>> client services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The new policy grants automatic ownership, without the need to
>>>>>>> apply, to clients one year after their graduation date if they are
>>>>>>> in good
>>>>>> standing
>>>>>>> (not on probation, and with no complaints on file).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Current clients (in good standing) who have had their Leader
>>>>>>> Dog longer than one year will receive automatic ownership as of
>>>>>>> May 1, 2014.
>>>>>>> Clients (in good standing) who received their Leader Dog after May
>>>>>>> 1,
>>>>>>> 2013 will receive automatic ownership one year after their
>>>>>>> graduation
>>>>> date.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have questions about the ownership of your Leader Dog,
>>>>>>> please contact your client services coordinator at 888-777-5332.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you have shared your email
>>>>>>> address with Leader Dogs for the Blind. To ensure that you
>>>>>>> continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book
>>>>>>> or
>> safe list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your email preferences | Review our Privacy
>>>>>>> Policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind, 1039 S. Rochester Rd., Rochester Hills,
>>>>>>> MI
>>>>>> 48307
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forward email
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leader Dogs for the Blind | 1039 S. Rochester Rd. |
>>>>>>> Rochester Hills | MI | 48309
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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