[nagdu] Scavenging WAS Re: A warning to people visiting NYC

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Sun Nov 23 15:13:05 UTC 2014 

How do you know the dog will drop the contraband, and not just try to 
swallow it?  Krokus likes to pick up, say, napkins or tissues.

Krokus is very good about not scavenging while he's working, actively 
walking.  It's when he's at the curb relieving, or lying on the floor in the 
bus, that his mouth gets him into trouble.  I really don't want him trying 
to gulp down some disgusting thing he's picked up in the city.
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Jarvis via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "Mary Wurtzel" <marywurtzel at att.net>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National 
Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 1:43 PM
Subject: [nagdu] Scavenging WAS Re: A warning to people visiting NYC


> Hey, Mary!
>
> Glad your Felix is such a great worker. It seems like scavenging is a 
> challenge for many, which makes sense with dogs. Some are more determined 
> than others for sure.
>
> I agree with you that if a piece of gear makes your dog cry, you should 
> not use that piece of gear. I'm assuming you've checked it for proper fit 
> and for anything that might be making it uncomfortable that can be 
> repaired. I personally use head collars with my poodles who take to them 
> easily, but that doesn't mean they work for every dog. Or for every 
> handler.
>
> Okay, so using positive reinforcement -- especially with food rewards -- 
> for scavenging is counterintuitive until you manage to wrap your head 
> around it. Then it makes perfect sense and it becomes easier to use those 
> techniques. I've found that to be true of many things in training... Once 
> I get it, it's so obvious! Before I get it, I have a harder time figuring 
> it out.
>
> Scavenging is self-rewarding, so to start, you need something more 
> rewarding. What that will be depends on the dog. To turn around a 
> dedicated scavenger, I'm in favor of smelly treats, like lamb lung or 
> liver or, well, something really smelly. That way, you can get the dog's 
> attention from a distance and lure it to you. Having all your pockets 
> smell like something nummy for dogs is a real downside. /lol/ I'm just as 
> happy that my puppy finds kibble rewarding enough. For now.
>
> To start with scavenging and shredding around the house, I use "swap" with 
> a lure. The dog can't keep the thing in its mouth while getting the treat, 
> so drops the thing. Well, we have a dog that can do both, since is part 
> chipmunk and would stuff the contraband in her cheek, convincing me she 
> must have dropped it. /lol/ If your dog is that talented, good luck! For 
> the dog that drops the one thing to take the lure, the next step is to 
> have the dog do something else, like come to you (even if it's only a step 
> at first) or heel into the next room, or do something playful. I find that 
> ignoring the thing that was dropped completely is the best way to go. I'll 
> wait until later, when the dog isn't watching to pick it up and put it 
> away. If the dog wants to go back to it after the initial swap, I just 
> play the leave it game and keep working leave it. It's a convenient time 
> for it, since I know the tempting thing is there and can tell the dog is 
> going back for it. I have also found that playing that game with a puppy 
> is less aggravating than with an adult dog, probably because I don't 
> expect the puppy to know better. /lol/
>
> The real advantage of using lures, bribes and treats outrageously at first 
> for shredding of household contraband is that the dog will begin to choose 
> the swap quickly, which means the dog is not shredding. It may still pick 
> up the item, but instead of dashing off furtively, it will let you know so 
> that you can play the swap game or the leave it game. In my experience, 
> the dog will also stick to the same items, so I know what to expect and 
> can be more on top of things to get to the point the dog isn't picking it 
> up at all.
>
> I will quickly go from "swap" to "drop it" and "leave it," both of which 
> come into play out in the world. So while the dog is still picking up 
> contraband for you to bribe away from it, you can be reinforcing those 
> commands like mad, which gives you an edge there.
>
> I also work the "touch" command frequently throughout the day, especially 
> with a trainee. That becomes a good tool in addressing sniffing/scavenging 
> out and about. It's a good alternative behavior, since the dog can't sniff 
> the ground while touching your hand, you know what the dog is doing while 
> it is touching your hand, and the reward can be right there doing double 
> duty as a lure. Then you can go forward. Eventually, you can skip the 
> touch and just do "leave it forward."
>
> Another way to reward is to allow sniffing at points of your choosing 
> along the way. In other words, if the dog can pass x number of favorite 
> sniff spots, then it can sniff at y sniff spot with your permission. Not 
> everyone approves of this technique, but those who use it find it works, 
> especially with dedicated sniffers. You can use a word or body language to 
> communicate that the dog now has your permission to indulge until you are 
> ready to move on again.
>
> Those are starter techniques you can start with for the home behavior. I'm 
> not sure if I've sort of explained using positive reinforcement or just 
> over-complicated things. I like to start with concept and develop method 
> from there, adapting to circumstances and individual dog. With three dogs 
> in the house, each at different levels, and one very different from the 
> other two, this means I am frequently confused or wondering why anything 
> works at all. /lol/ But it does. I don't claim that Mitzi is perfect, but 
> when I started taking Loki out along our same routes, I started to 
> appreciate how great she is about passing by all sorts of things she could 
> be sniffing and grabbing. We have a few sniff spots, so she indulges there 
> as we get going, and a few more she favors when we are on a sniff 'n 
> stroll out of harness. I had no idea how much litter and stuff there is 
> along the sidewalks until now. And nobody ever picks it up. That was 
> convenient with Loki, since I came to know where there was stuff for him 
> to pick up so I could tell him to drop it. /lol/ Either he's gotten better 
> by now, or someone picked up all the litter and it hasn't been replaced.
>
> Now I will go read all the clear and concise posts and probably learn 
> something. /smile/
>
> Best of luck!
>
> Tami
>
>
>
> On 11/21/2014 04:46 PM, Mary Wurtzel via nagdu wrote:
>> It has been a long time since I sent a post. This kind of goes along with
>> this e-mail.
>> I have had an ongoing challenge with Felix scavenging.
>> He is four years old and also still gets things to tear up when loose 
>> around
>> the house.  He lunges for food on the floor or under the table.  The 
>> field
>> rep from
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gdf came.  He told me to use the buckle-high which may be the same  as 
>> the
>> halty.  I didn't like this devices.
>> Felix  was kind of crying when it was on.  I think the gentle leader is
>> better, but it takes me forever to get it on.  I know I do need to 
>> practice
>> with it.
>> On the really great side of things about Felix is that he is a fantastic
>> guide and balance dog.  He stops for anything he thinks might trip me, if 
>> it
>> is an elevation or a drop.  I will not bore you with all the great things
>> Felix does for me.  I sometimes think if I could do away with Felix's 
>> nose
>> it would be fine, LOL.
>> I am happy for any advice.  I have read what people have posted.  I guess 
>> I
>> am not getting how positive reinforcement works hen  n  I don't know when
>> Felix will lunge for something.
>> I really love having a guide dog but do not want to give a bad name to 
>> guide
>> dogdom.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sheila 
>> Leigland
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 2:23 PM
>> To: Daryl Marie; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide 
>> Dog
>> Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] A warning to people visiting NYC
>>
>> you got that right and the person that I was with didn't even tell me 
>> what
>> tres was sniffing only that it was really nasty.
>> On 11/20/2014 8:00 AM, Daryl Marie via nagdu wrote:
>>> Tracy,
>>> Thanks for the warning! I had planned on using the Halti the first 
>>> couple
>> of days, because Jenny is definitely a scavenger.  Perhaps it will be
>> longer-term than both jenny and I like!
>>> *sighs*
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:44:02 -0700 (MST)
>>> Subject: [nagdu] A warning to people visiting NYC
>>>
>>> Just a word of warning to Daryl and anyone else coming to visit NYC.
>>> The average New Yorker is a pig who throws anything he's done with
>>> down on the sidewalk or into the gutter.  Food, tissues, whatever.  I
>>> don't even like to think about the things I've pulled out of Krokus's
>> mouth.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
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>
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