[nagdu] Combo dogs
Bridget Walker
bridgetawalker13 at aol.com
Fri Feb 27 16:45:43 UTC 2015
I really think everyone has brought out some solid points about guide dog training the public does not understand. From my own observations it seems the public thinks a guide dog is like a GPS programmed to read the handler's mind. As if a guide dog does not require any special skills to do their job. We know it is not true.
I do not want to rehash the complex skills like counter conditioning, intelligent disobedience, or targeting. There is just so much.
It is true a guide dog can be tasked trained for other things we know this but, not many people take it on. I don't think people really understand what they are getting in to.
I do not think anyone can understand the work of a guide dog team until they live it.
Bridget
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 27, 27 Heisei, at 11:04 AM, Applebutter Hill via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Buddy, you've hit the nail on the head here. Intelligent disobedience, or
> selective disobedience as it was once called, sets guide dog training apart.
> The trainer is in the position of trying to get the dog to understand not
> only the goal of the command but the range of parameters that delay the
> accomplishment of that goal. To some extent, they are aided by the dog's
> natural instinct for self preservation, as in not walking in front of a
> truck, but in other cases like avoiding overhead obstacles that don't bother
> the dog and steep steps that the dog could take with ease or finding
> something like "the way out" or "a seat," that isn't much help. Fortunately,
> dogs are very intuitive and, as is apparent in the threat about walking with
> children, they are very adaptable.
>
> I think there is still a prejudice against blind people that makes trainers
> of other service dogs want to exclude them so as not to "mix" people with
> other disabilities with blind people. GDF trains service dogs for vets as
> well as guide dogs, and some vets are both blind and have PTSD or some other
> disability, so it is certainly possible to get a guide dog with other
> service dog skills.
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
> nagdu
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 8:53 AM
> To: Tracy Carcione; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Combo dogs
>
> I'd love the thoughts of real trainers, but it seems to me that one thing
> that sets guide dog training apart from the training of other service dog
> tasks is intelligent disobedience. My observation is that for the most part,
> many service tasks are of the "I give this command, dog does this thing"
> variety. I say "Fetch", dog picks up my socks. I say "Pull", dog tugs on a
> handle to open a door. I say "Lights", and dog jumps up to turn on a light
> switch. Or, dog gets some stimulus and in response performs some action. Of
> course, such a response would be a disaster for a guide dog. Our dogs of
> necessity have requests, not so much commands. "Forward" means "Forward, if
> you think it's a good idea and there's not some reason not to, like a semi
> truck barreling down the road". Also, if guide dog training is so easy,
> especially given current traffic conditions, why have the schools
> concentrated on those behaviors and, for example, dropped the training of
> other things, "Fetch" being the most often cited example?
>
> -
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>>> On Feb 27, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That's interesting that most other service dog programs steer clear of
>> guide dogs. I heard a couple trainers recently complaining about how
>> easy guide dog training is, and how much more interesting service dog
>> training is. So, if guide dog training is so easy, why don't other
>> places do it? Is it the old thing that blind people are so different
>> from everyone else we couldn't possibly be in the same class with sighted
> people?
>> I was a bit annoyed at the comments about how easy guide dog training is.
>> If it's so darn easy, why do I have so much work to do when I get
>> home? I think more likely it's just the grass is greener on the other
>> side of the fence.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy
>> Brannan via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:51 PM
>> To: Danielle Antoine; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
>> Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179
>> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONSWHO USE
>> SERVICE ANIMALS
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> If you ever do need a combo dog, you won't get one from CCI.they don't
>> do any guide training at all. Paws With a Cause might. There are tons
>> of little service dog programs that do one thing or another or
>> several, but lots steer clear of guide work.
>>
>> -
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:07 PM, Danielle Antoine via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ho Hum! well, hell. And to think I have recommended them to folks who
>>> could more benefit from a service dog. Heck, one old day I too might
>>> need a service or combination dog that the guide dog schools can not
>>> address. That. is. not. the. case. right. now. This is totally
>>> sickening! If they were able to do this, what or who would stop other
>>> states from following suit? I'm sure Martin, Dorothy, Morris, and
>>> Kenneth are rolling over and pressing their way out of the grave
>>> right now! I thought it was a reject from the first one or two
>>> programs applied for or someone who got their guide dog revoked
>>> promoting this sort of nonsense foolishness. Lor, can't wait for the
>>> update. SO glad to hear it didn't pass. Thanks Sharonda! As for
>>> dealing with an aggressive dog, I focus on keeping my own self and
>>> dog as far away as I can and make sure I have control over my dog and
>>> myself. A safe distance means you can move around and get out if need
>>> be. The best is a dog that is seen, not heard. What other service dog
>>> schools are there aside from CCI and KSDS?
>>>
>>> Danielle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2/26/15, L Gwizdak via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Aleeha,
>>>> I would be shocked if CCI were behind this. It would be
>>>> counterproductive to them as they provide service dogs. They are
>>>> behind amending the ADA to allow businesses to ask for IDs but I
>>>> don't
>> think this thing.
>>>>
>>>> I was interested in reading this because it smacks of a bill last
>>>> year in AZ to allow public places to refuse to serve LGBT people.
>>>> Some of these morons just hate everyone and everything. That anti
>>>> LGBT law also went down in flames. I think the heat must get to
>>>> their
>> brains!
>>>>
>>>> I did hear that this anti-service dog bill did die as it should.
>>>> But, just the idea that there are still people who want to take this
>>>> country back to the Dark Ages. We need to know about these things
>>>> so we
>> stay vigilant.
>>>> Rights are won but they can also be taken away and wwe must ALWAYS
>>>> be aware and watching. We can never rest. I know this well as an
>>>> LGBT person AND a disabled service dog user.
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Oliver
>>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> To: "Michael Hingson" <mike at michaelhingson.com>; "NAGDU Mailing
>>>> List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 5:27 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT;HB2179
>>>> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONSWHO USE
>>>> SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Pardon me while I rant for a moment.
>>>>> How dare a state legislature decide that a person cannot go
>>>>> somewhere just
>>>>>
>>>>> because they are disabled. How dare they keep tabs on us like
>>>>> children, treat us like second rate citizens and the scum of the
>>>>> earth. How dare we be penalized for our choice to use service
>>>>> animals. I wish I were able to go down there and talk some sense
>>>>> into these morons. I agree that CCI appears to be behind this. This
>>>>> has
>> always been a pet project of theirs.
>>>>> OK, I think I'm done now. Sorry, this just makes me mad enough to
>>>>> have smoke flowing out of my ears. Bak under the rock.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aleeha Dudley and Seeing Eye Dog Dallas Vice President, Ohio
>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users Vice President, Ohio Association of
>>>>> Blind Students Both proud divisions of the National Federation of
>>>>> the Blind of Ohio
>>>>> Email: blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not
>>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we
>>>>> raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations
>>>>> create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can live
>>>>> the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>> "The wind of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears." -
>>>>> Arabian
>>>>>
>>>>> proverb
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:36 PM, Michael Hingson via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The legislature also does not understand disabilities well nor
>>>>>> does it seem to recognize what service dogs do. At least some
>>>>>> legislators do not
>>>>>>
>>>>>> seem to understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> States do not trump Federal law in any case, but this law shows
>>>>>> that we must be ever vigilant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> <mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Ginger Kutsch via
>>>>>> nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:07 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179
>>>>>> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONS WHO USE
>>>>>> SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Larry Wanger <larry at azsilc.org>
>>>>>> Date: February 18, 2015 at 1:16:14 PM MST
>>>>>> Subject: URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179 AMENDMENT MAKES
>>>>>> SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONS WHO USE SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The following information is provided in order to share
>>>>>> information regarding legislation pending in the Arizona House of
>>>>>> Representatives that will impact the rights of persons with
>> disabilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Legislation that will significantly impact the rights of persons
>>>>>> with disabilities who utilize the assistance of a service animal
>>>>>> will be heard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in the House Government and higher Education Committee at 9:00am
>>>>>> tomorrow, Thursday February 19 in House hearing Room 1. This
>>>>>> legislation is an amendment to HB2179 and will make significant
>>>>>> changes to current state statutes regarding the rights of
>>>>>> individuals with service animals
>>>>>> including:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . Requiring that individuals who use service animals obtain a
>>>>>> permit from the Arizona Department of health Services in order to
>>>>>> take their service animal in to a public place and that such
>>>>>> permit be renewed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on a regular basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . As part of the permit process, an individual will be
> required
>>>>>> to apply to the Department of Health Services and provide
>>>>>> documentation from a medical professional certifying the applicant
>>>>>> has
>> a disability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . Requiring that a service animal wear a vest, also issued by
>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Department of Health Services at all times when in a public place.
>>>>>> This vest will display permit information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . Allows restaurants to block access for persons with service
>>>>>> animals in order to meet local and or state health code regulations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . Requires the Department of Health services to develop a sign
>>>>>> for restaurants to display indicating that service animals are not
>>>>>> permitted and that a separate sign for other public businesses not
>>>>>> serving food be created that indicates service animals are allowed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . Requires the Department of Health Services to petition the
>>>>>> United States Department of Justice requesting that the Americans
>>>>>> with Disabilities Act be updated to comply with state law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additionally, the following language is included at the end of the
>>>>>> amendment:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The legislature finds that the Americans with disabilities act of
>>>>>> 1990 may endanger the health and safety of the public, place an
>>>>>> undue burden on businesses and others and conflict with state and
>>>>>> local
>> health codes.
>>>>>> State and local health codes shall supersede the Americans with
>>>>>> disabilities act of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1990."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have attached the full text of the amendment to HB2179 for your
>> review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry Wanger, Executive Director
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arizona Statewide Independent Living Council
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5025 E. Washington Street, Suite 214
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phoenix, AZ. 85034
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 602-262-2900 (Voice/TTY)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 602-271-4100 (Fax)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> larry at azsilc.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.azsilc.org
>>>>>> <http://mandrillapp.com/track/click/30489975/www.azsilc.org?p=eyJz
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> joiNl9oWXVMRk1USTRqTVlVSm45X0FFRDE5ZXcwIiwidiI6MSwicCI6IntcInVcIjo
>>>>>> z
>>>>>> MDQ4OTk3NSxcInZcIjoxLFwidXJsXCI6XCJodHRwOlxcXC9cXFwvd3d3LmF6c2lsYy
>>>>>> 5
>>>>>> vcmdcIixcImlkXCI6XCI3Mjc5ZDIwMDZhMmE0YzYyOGY4OTJhMWM3NGQ3NmJmMFwiL
>>>>>> F
>>>>>> widXJsX2lkc1wiOltcIjRlMzlhYjU3YTkzZmNiMzczY2JkMDI4ZGFhZmRiODBhZWYx
>>>>>> M
>>>>>> WI2ZGJcIl19In0>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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