[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

NAGDU President blind411 at verizon.net
Sun Jan 8 19:24:06 UTC 2017 

Jenine,

	I am preparing a message to send to all guide dog training programs
requesting copies of their agreements to post on our website in the interest
of full disclosure. Would you please let Wells know I will be doing this and
ask him to send GDF's agreement to us when requested? I know there will be
some who will refuse to do so and this fact will be disclosed when we
prepare the documents. Also, please let him know I would like to discuss
another issue with him concerning harnesses. Thanks a bunch!

Fraternally yours,
Marion


Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG


The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley
via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 10:07 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Jenine Stanley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

There is no 5-year health claus in the GDF ownership contract. 

there is also language in said contract that states that a dog may only be
removed, if the graduate has full ownership, through a third party. this
would typically be a court or other legal system.
> On Jan 7, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Well I think the less restrictions the better, if any school doesn't trust
> it's grads than maybe they shouldn't give dogs to such grads--lol.
> Now as far as I know, the schools that grant transfer of title or
ownership
> on graduation are the Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs of America, Freedom Guide
Dogs,
> and Guide Dog Foundation, am I missing anyone? I do like keeping track of
it
> as I really do only want to receive services for a program that gives
> ownership.
> 
> Cordially,
> Dan W.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> 
> Oh, I think the discussion is good. You stated the ages to which you had
> worked your dogs. I was wondering about mandatory retirement at eleven.
> Maybe you didn't get all of your dogs from Southeastern? If not then the
> question might not be valid.
> 
> TSE has the thing about the harness in their contract; they don't as I
> recall have anything in it about their decision as to when the dog must be
> deemed unfit. So far they have left it up to me, and they don't police the
> harnesses unless they see someone selling one on EBay, such as in the case
> of family selling the harness of a deceased relative. I have always
returned
> harnesses, but though they say they remain the property of the school, I
> have never been told "Now you've retired your dog you must return that
> harness." They don't even know I've retired Fisher. They don't have in
there
> to my knowledge that you can't work someone's dog, but I do think they
take
> a dim view of it. However, when we told them I had worked Chuck's dog,
they
> never made a deal of it. I might need to look at that contract as well.
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:29 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements
> 
> Cindy,
> 
> 	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
> and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
> realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
> specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
> attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party
has
> the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question.
My
> lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of
ownership
> agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions
of
> the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if
you
> own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
> property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of
a
> future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or the
> giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of
marriage,
> property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
> guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership
does
> not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
> change the oil regularly.
> 
> 	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
> ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
> reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
> reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is found
> in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.
> 
> 6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness furnished
to
> the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property of SEGDI. In the
> event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to proper use, SEGDI
> reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also, at the time of
> retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the Dog is no
longer
> suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be returned  to SEGDI
> immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to sell, lend or retain
> the harness once the Dog has retired.  
> 
> Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
> much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or
someone
> you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
> feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
> believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
> If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
> treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
> oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their dog
> repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
> ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better
follow-up!
> 
> 	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
> anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
> drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
> know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
> wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle. I
> was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of
this
> - I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
> program could remove him for this! How ludicrous! 
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Cindy Ray
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the
owner
> policy? It was apparently not in place before?
> 
> Cindy
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> David,
> 
> 	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
> better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
> could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
> provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's
we
> have signed!
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: david at bakerinet.com
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
> unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a
law
> school dropout, perhaps?
> 
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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