[NAGDU] Treats VS. clicker training

Wed Jun 21 01:10:33 UTC 2017

*Hello Miranda, and Heather.
I actually prefer the term Marker training as some of us, rather than 
use a clicker, use a marker word. In my case, an enthusiastic "YES!" 
when the pup gets it right. It's much simpler for me to vocalize, than 
tie up a hand with a clicker, especially, if I'm using treats. Yes. I 
marker train without treats. It may not work on all dogs, but it worked 
on the three Guide Dogs that I've Owner Trained.  To my thinking, it 
would not be a very efficient method to treat without marking, whether 
verbally, or with a clicker.
As I am in no way connected to Freedom Dogs, I cannot comment on their 
training methodology, nor on that of any school a I have not worked a 
programme trained dog since 2011, and the school that I previously 
attended has introduced clicker training to their toolkit. With that 
being said, however, I'd be very surprised if some type of marking was 
not used at Freedom.
The only way to find out is to ask the school. *grin*

Wayne And Harley

k9dad at k9di.org

*
On 6/20/2017 10:43 AM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
> A. Yes, the Seeing Eye absolutely uses click and treat training.
> B. Many other schools use clicker training with treats.
> C. The Seeing Eye also pairs clickers and treats with an audible target with
> a bell on it that the dog must touch with their nose and ring in order to
> indicate that they've found something, enabling the blind handler to be more
> accurate than without it and not to rely on sighted people to help get the
> clicks to be truly accurate. You do not need the target once the place has
> been taught to your dog. It works wonders, and I believe that Seeing Eye is
> the only school currently using an audable target.
> D. Using treat training without a clicker is highly inaccurate and in my
> mind, a waste of callories and it can lead to the inadvertent training of
> incorrect or sloppy behaviors sometimes.
> E. I am not confirming that Freedom does or does not use treats or does or
> does not use clickers, but generally speaking, I stand by my previous
> statement. Treats alone are only somewhat helpful, sometimes useless and
> potentially detrimental, but clickers and treats together are absolutely
> amazing. Also, clickers and treats without audible targets are limited in
> some ways, but if you add the target, you get an astounding result. So,
> treats? good, clickers and treats? better, clickers, treats and targets?
> Priceless. *smile*
> F. If you want a detailed explanation of how the clickers, treats, target
> combo works, then email me at heather.l.bird at gmail.com and I will email you
> a detailed description. If you will be at convention, look me up and I'll
> get out the target, clicker and treats and show you.
> G. If you want clarification from Freedom, then calling them and asking for
> a detailed explanation of which markers and treats they use, and why they
> use what they do would not be a miss.
>
> Heather Bird
> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
> a Communist.
> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
> wasn't a trade unionist.
> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
> Protestant.
> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
> Martin Niemöller
> In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human
> Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miranda B. via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:31 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Miranda B.
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Treats VS. clicker training
>
> Hi Julie and all,
> I am considering The Seeing Eye and Freedom Dogs. It is my understanding
> (please do correct me if I am wrong) that The Seeing Eye uses clicker
> training, and that Freedom Dogs uses treats and no clickers.
> Thanks again to everyone for your continued patience in answering my many
> questions, and have a wonderful week!
>
> Best wishes, Miranda
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:27 AM
> To: Miranda B. via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj402 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Treats VS. clicker training
>
> Miranda,
>
> I'm not Tami, but I get what she's saying.  Some people use the words:
> treat training, clicker training or positive reinforcement to mean the same
> thing.  In my mind there are differences, but there is significant overlap
> in the way people use these terms. So to really answer your question super
> accurately, we'd need more information.
>
> Perhaps if you said witch schools you are looking at, graduates from there
> could describe how they use treats or clicker etc.
>
> Julie
> http://guide-and-service-dogs.com
>
> On 6/20/2017 10:18 AM, Miranda B. via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hi Tami and all,
>> Thanks for the great feedback thus far. I would like to clarify
>> something that may have been miscommunicated in my original message.
>> When I speak of "treats versus clicker training", I am not referring
>> to one school's comparison. I'm wondering about the pros and cons of
>> each, as schools that I'm exploring use either one method or the
>> other, not both. So, one school uses treats, and another uses clicker
>> training. I'm trying to determine advantages and disadvantages of each
>> of these training methods as part of the criteria used to evaluate the
> right school for me.
>> Thanks again for your time and assistance, and I'm sorry for any
> confusion!
>> Best wishes, Miranda
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:48 AM
>> To: Miranda via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Treats VS. clicker training
>>
>> Miranda,
>>
>> Clicker training also involves treats. Some people give a treat with
>> every click. I use random treats with the clicker, once the dog
>> understands what the clicker means.
>>
>> So the clicker itself is a marker, to let the dog know it has
>> performed the desired behavior. The treat follows. The great thing
>> about the clicker is that it's closer to instantaneous than even a
>> verbal marker, so you can capture behavior in a pretty refined way. A
>> verbal marker would be "good dog" or whatever you teach the dog to
>> know as an indication it has done the right thing. Hope that makes sense.
>>
>> For guide work, I especially prefer being able to click (or praise,
>> sometimes both) without having to treat every time, so we can just
>> keep on going.
>>
>> I'm not sure that answers the question of what a given school means by
>> "clicker training" vs. treats for positive reinforcement. They may
>> mean the same thing but are just saying it differently.
>>
>> hth
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 06/20/2017 03:35 AM, Miranda via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> As I research guide dog schools, I am wondering about the pros and
>>> cons of
>> positive reinforcements with treats versus clicker training. Any
>> insight would be very much appreciated.
>>> Thanks as always for your time and assistance, and have a wonderful week!
>>>
>>> Best wishes, Miranda
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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