[NAGDU] Softer Dogs?

Wed Mar 22 14:43:21 UTC 2017

Julie,

That was a thoughtful response. Thanks to everyone in general for sharing.

Gator required a high collar every blue moon and did his time with the
prong collar. We finally began making use of the Newtrix collar, which
worked wonders for us, but even then Gator knew how to work my
buttons. Also, Gator, I swear, was a vengeful little demon. He would
take his corrections well enough, maybe with the occasional yelp to
make sure the world understood he was being tortured by the awful
awful human being, but five minutes later I am pretty sure he did not
have to run me into those low hanging branches.

Matthew, my three-year-old shepherd, is a lot softer than my first
shepherd. Matthew also pushes his luck, but whereas Gator was a lot
bolder about his offenses, Matthew will attempt to be stealthy. He is
much quieter in general. I can live with that, but where he and I
catch friction is when I am trying to make him pick up his pace. I
know he has it in him. If he sees a dog halfway down the street, he
sure fires on all cylinders. The same is true when he knows we're
nearing dinner time or he needs to be relieved, but if I need to rush
to get somewhere? Umm, no. Matthew will walk fast when he damn well
pleases, and so when he gets distracted or misbehaves, I might be a
little loose on leash corrections.

I appreciated the reminder not to rely on corrections as the mechanism
to fixing the behavior. It's good to remember to catch their attention
and then do our best to retain that focus, but admittedly, sometimes I
fear I may resort to methods that were required of my first dog but
not so necessary of my second.

On a broader scope, it could get a little irritating at school when
you had a mix of seasoned instructors and newcomers giving what could
feel like conflicting tips on the best way to correct certain
behavior.

Thanks all,

Joe

On 3/22/17, Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> This is interesting. Here's my take on dog personalities, treats and
> corrections.
>
> A long, long time ago when I first began to learn dog training when I
> was in high school, I had a seriously aggressive Beagle. He was
> neglected as a young puppy, but I thought I could overcome anything.  I
> was like 13, and all 13 year old are invincible and can do anything.
>
> This Beagle was not afraid of anything.  He would bite people to get
> what he wanted.  He would bite other dogs if they tried to take anything
> from him or invaded his personal space.  I don't mean nip or snap at the
> air, I mean real flesh ripping bites.  I took him through the basic
> obedience class offered at the time, which was correction based.  He
> tried to bite the instructor.  She lifted him off the ground, all four
> feet, by his correction collar.  That really made him mad and he
> attacked her full throttle.  She was fast though and lifted him up
> again.  It was horrible to watch.
>
> I believe correction training made his aggression worse.  It escalated
> the situation.  Knowing what I do now, I think positive training and
> management would have been the best approach for that dog.  His early
> experiences in life caused permanent damage.  He needed gentle
> understanding and to not be put in situations he couldn't handle.
>
> I've had a lot of other dogs in the 30 years between then and now.  Some
> soft, and some harder.  Monty used to be a harder dog, but his
> personality has softened a lot with age.  Jetta is a pretty dominant
> dog.  She was trained with clicker and I can't see how it could have
> made her soft.  I think what it did do is allow her control to make her
> own decisions and learn in her own way. She flourished in that space.
>
> I think people frequently misunderstand clicker and the treats. The
> treats are not a carrot on the end of a stick to lure the dog into doing
> something.  They aren't a bribe, if you're good you can get a candy at
> the check out.  They are an unemotional reward given to communicate that
> the dog has performed the desired action.
>
> Clicker is a training method, when the dog fully understands the
> behavior, the learning is done and the clicker and treats are no longer
> used.  Yes, that needs to be gradually phased out.  Yes, there are
> occasions when you can get it out to teach a new thing or help a dog
> with a difficult spot.  When you go to a new area or transition to a new
> handler it can be useful to use the clicker and treats to reinforce what
> the dog knows and make the transition smoother.
>
> Corrections can and do work to train dogs.  They can be misused just as
> the clicker and treats can be misused.  Harder corrections are not the
> answer.  Better corrections are.  The type of collar used should be
> matched to the particular dog and handler.  You want the minimum amount
> of correction to get the dog's attention. I frequently hear people
> talking about two handed high collar corrections here and it makes me
> cringe.  Something has gone wrong if that's a common thing that's
> happening.  It's the wrong collar or the wrong timing or the
> relationship has deteriorated or remedial training is needed to solve
> particular problems. Getting the dog's attention is not the same thing
> as getting the dog to stop the action.  If you use the collar to get the
> dog to stop an action that is punishment not attention getting.  the
> collar, like everyone says, is used to get the dog's attention.  Once
> you have the dog's attention you need to do something to keep the
> attention on you or redirect the dog or whatever.  If the correction is
> the stand alone method for ending a behavior, you are doing it wrong.
>
> I do not currently use treats with either of my dogs when they are
> working.  I haven't with Monty for years and not with Jetta for at least
> a year now.  Jetta, my super hard dog, has a check chain for working
> currently.   I don't really use it much.  She doesn't respond to
> corrections of any variety.
>
> What she does respond to is clear communication, clear directions and me
> setting the example of not getting upset.   Getting her to do what I
> want is relationship based.  If I try to physically make her stop doing
> something by use of the collar, it will simply not work.  She will do
> what she wants.  I have to get her to want what I want.  Then we work
> beautifully together.
>
> Remember she's a Doberman and a fairly dominant Doberman at that. She's
> pushed me to the limits of what I knew as a trainer and handler.  She's
> made me work hard to learn new and better ways of working with dogs.
> She's not the dog for everyone, probably not the dog for most people.
>
> I think the programs put out softer dogs because they are easier to
> handle.  They don't challenge your position as leader.  They want to
> follow direction and please you.  The trick is to not have a dog who is
> too soft and can't handle the pressure of guiding or guiding in
> particular situations.   At one end you have a dog who melts under
> stress and at the other end you have a dog who will take charge.  The
> melty dog is easier to handle, but guide work might be a problem.   The
> take charge dog can guide under pressure, but may be difficult for
> people to handle, especially aging folks, those with multiple
> disabilities or those with minimal dog experience.
>
> Julie
>
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