[NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs treats.

Thu May 23 00:37:00 UTC 2019

I love the English heal.
All done with one hand.
Just like a dance.
I understand they went back to the old way of holding the leash.
I like it around my arm the wrist.
Then if I should fall I still have the leash.

Original message:
> An Leader seems to be modeling their program now off of GDF. One of their
> trainers is now with Leader, and is training the new apprentices with
> techniques I know from when I had a GDF dog in the past. Older trainers are
> training a bit differently, but all are using more food rewards than I
> recall from the past. The idea is that they are to be weaned off over time,
> but never discontinued altogether.

> J and B

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 7:53 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Danielle Sykora
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs treats.

> I should probably rephrase then to say this is not an accurate
> description of every program that uses treats, because GDB is not the
> only program to use food reward. GDF modeled their newer program off
> GDB in a lot of ways so I thought it was similar in terms of food
> reward. Thank you for the clarification.

> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie

> On 5/20/19, Vivianna via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I agree with Deborah here. GDB does use treats heavily and continuously
>> for
>> the working life of their dogs. You can find this info on their website if
>> you don’t believe me. Yes, GDB grads truly do carry loads of treats around
>> constantly. And, no, this is totally not for me personally. But, that’s
>> why
>> there are several schools to choose from, or, in my case, the ability to
>> owner-train.

>> Vivianna

>> Sent from my iPhone

>>> On May 20, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:

>>> This is not an accurate description of how food rewards are used by
>>> guide dog programs. Treats are not supposed to be used on a constant
>>> basis. You do not reward a dog with a treat every single time it does
>>> something correctly for the life of the dog.

>>> During the training process of a new behavior, you do reward with a
>>> treat every time. Once the dog has mastered the behavior, you
>>> gradually reduce the number of treats that are given until the dog is
>>> only receiving a food reward on occasion or not at all. During the
>>> first few weeks or months a handler has a new dog, the rate of food
>>> reward is kept high, and then gradually reduced to the point where you
>>> only need to carry a few pieces of kibble with you each day or only
>>> use treats in particularly challenging situations. I'm positive there
>>> are handlers who use treats improperly, and I won't even get into the
>>> average pet owner. The same could be said for corrections, time outs,
>>> or any training method though. Just because occasionally people use
>>> the training method incorrectly, doesn't make it bad.

>>> I can't speak about GDB from personal experience, but I know GDF uses
>>> food rewards in a similar way. For example, Jackie was trained with
>>> food rewards. It took about two months to reduce her from about a half
>>> a cup of kibble per day to about ten pieces of kibble per day.

>>> It's totally fine to have and share different opinions about training
>>> methods, but it is important to make sure you fully understand the
>>> method before doing so. It's like how many members of the general
>>> public think leash corrections are abuse, because they don't
>>> understand their purpose and how handlers know how to correct in a
>>> safe and effective way. I'm not trying to pick on any individual,
>>> because I see the misconceptions about food rewards a lot.

>>> Just for comparisons sake, my dog trained with extensive food reward
>>> does not scavenge or act obsessed with food. My dog trained with very
>>> minimal food reward (just for recall) is a serious scavenger and
>>> highly, highly food driven.

>>> Also, most programs except students from Canada, but it's probably a
>>> good idea to contact individual programs about their policies
>>> concerning students from other countries.

>>> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie

>>>> On 5/20/19, Debra Chandler via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I'm sure Seeing Eye accepts students from Canada but not sure about
>>>> other
>>>> countries.  I found last night's presentation re GDB very interesting.
>>>> However I don't agree with such a food-driven approach to training.  I
>>>> personally am not going to fill my pockets with treats every time I work
>>>> my
>>>> dog and reward my dog with a treat every time it does something
>>>> correctly.
>>>> The clicker is fine for certain behaviors like  finding a traffic light
>>>> pole.  But I'm just not comfortable with using treats as reinforcers on
>>>> a
>>>> regular basis.
>>>> Deb and Tally
>>>> ---- Tracy Lloyd via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> I too would be interested to discover which, if any, of the US schools
>>>>> will
>>>> except applications from other countries, especially european ones?  I'm
>>>> in
>>>> the UK, and had thought that only Pilot would take applications from the
>>>> UK
>>>> and Europe.  anyone have any more info?

>>>> Tracy

>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Leye-Shprintse Öberg via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2019 10:25 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Leye-Shprintse Öberg
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Questions about American Guide Dog Programs

>>>> בס’ד

>>>> Danielle,

>>>> Thank you for your answer. Now, I know where I’ll start my research.

>>>> Sandra,

>>>> Some American guide dog programs accept international students and some
>>>> others don’t do it.

>>>> לשלום,
>>>> Leye-Shprintse Oeberg
>>>> Sweden

>>>>> 19 maj 2019 kl. 22:37 skrev Sandra Gayer via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>:

>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I thought you have to live in America to apply for a dog from an
>>>>> American school. Can an applicant be domiciled in another part of the
>>>>> world entirely and still apply to an American school? I only ask
>>>>> because I couldn't help noticing Sweden at the end of the first email
>>>>> in this thread.

>>>>> Very best wishes,
>>>>> Sandra.

>>>>>> On 5/19/19, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> The US programs that give ownership upon graduation are Seeing Eye,
>>>>>> GDF,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Freedom for sure, and I believe Pilot and GDA as well. Other programs
>>>>>> either
>>>>>> give ownership after a period of time, or say they give ownership but
>>>>>> still
>>>>>> have the ability to remove the dog in some situations.

>>>>>> In terms of positive training methods, basically everyone is going to
>>>>>> tell
>>>>>> you the program they went to used positive methods because obviously
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> can't train a dog without rewarding them for their appropriate
>>>>>> behavior.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> two programs that come to mind that truly strive to use the most
>>>>>> positive
>>>>>> methods possible are GDB and GDF.
>>>>>> Danielle

>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone

>>>>>>> On May 19, 2019, at 3:02 PM, Leye-Shprintse Öberg via NAGDU
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

>>>>>>> בס’ד

>>>>>>> Hi,

>>>>>>> I’m researching guide dog programs for my next guide dog. I wonder
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> guide dog programs give ownership to the guide dog handler after
>>>>>>> graduation and which dittos use positive training methods with their
>>>>>>> dogs?
>>>>>>> Thank you!

>>>>>>> לשלום,
>>>>>>> Leye-Shprintse Oeberg
>>>>>>> Sweden
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>>>>> --
>>>>> Sandra Gayer DipABRSM, LRSM.

>>>>> Soprano Singer
>>>>> www.sandragayer.com

>>>>> Broadcast Presenter
>>>>> www.rnibconnectradio.org.uk/music-box.html

>>>>> Actor
>>>>> www.visablepeople.com

>>>>> Voiceover Artist
>>>>> www.archangelvoices.co.uk/content/sandra-gayer

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