[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 182, Issue 5
Peter Wolf
pwolf1 at wolfskills.com
Wed May 20 17:44:50 UTC 2020
Dear Carmela,
Because I’ve written extensively about this before, and about the leash rig that I have also adapted for using it, I won’t take up group bandwidth on it as a repeat. For you Carmela, or for anyone, please feel free to contact me at pwolf1 at wolfskills.com and I’d be happy to talk with you. I have the prior emails and photos, and would be happy to share them with you.
In brief summary, my dog as puppy had an incurably curious nose, but, we were otherwise a perfect fit. So for basic leash work, my trainer relented, and allowed all of our leash work to be by Gentle Leader, instead of a regular collar to leash connection. This became Metuka’s norm when we move as a team, and has continuted for 9 years. And so because we are steeped in it, I might be helpful for you with this.
To echo others, it is self-correcting. Perhaps think as in riding a horse. To have a good ride is to be sensitively relational with mutual respect. As in regard, not as in just keeping someone in place. This is important at the essence, because a lot of gentle leader use bonds our movements together far more intimately than just a leash. To use old west force is to then have to manage an animal, or get bucked off in the end. Relational would be to talk to, make a little kiss or click sound, or give a gentle squeeze with your thighs to walk…instead of kicking or spurring. This is essentially the feeling inside using gentle leader. It is about aware, sensitive communication, relationship, and self correcting by influence instead of quote, corrections. Turning, spacing out attention or a curious nose, and other direction shifts register through the head and neck - - long before the place of neck-to-shoulder where normal leashes attach. So with gentle leader, we get a lot of body communication, earlier, with a gentle leader because most of it initiates from the face first, where we are attached. This doesn’t mean that distractions don’t happen. But instead of correcting, I have learned that it is really about having to simply manage myself, stay attentitive to my dog, and stay the course… The dog cannot help but self correct and stay with me. Most of training, I’ve found, wasn’t really about the dog, it was about clear communication and consistency in myself for her. That was really a pisser in the beginning, because I went into it with a fantasy that my dog would provide a magic calmative…the trainer told me that if I wanted that, then I had better learn to model it for her!
So I have emails about it, and photos of my leash rig that operates well with the pressure just of a fingertip through a small loop. Anyone ask and you shall receive!
Best,
Peter
Connecting With the Wisdom of the Earth
Executive & individual coaching, consultation, and nature-based facilitation
www. Wolf Leadership Institute . com
707. 829 - 0776
> On May 19, 2020, at 5:00 AM, nagdu-request at nfbnet.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Gentle leaders and dog distractions (Tracy Carcione)
> 2. Re: Gentle leaders and dog distractions (Danielle Sykora)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 09:16:49 -0400
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gentle leaders and dog distractions
> Message-ID: <003901d62d16$96fc35d0$c4f4a170$@access.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Carmela.
> Sounds like you are doing the right things.
> For better or worse, I haven't used the GL much. I have had dogs since 1980, but only got a GL with my last dog. He hated it, and would slow down to a crawl if I put it on him, so I stopped. Krokus is much better with it, but his problem is scavenging, and, even if I have the GL tight, he still manages to grab things, and then I can't get them out of his mouth, so I don't use it a lot.
> It is true that just having it on calms him down a bit. That, or he's thinking about how to get it off, instead of thinking about other things.
> The configuration I like best is to put the big leash snap on his collar and the little snap on the GL. I feel like that gives me better control. I loop the leash around my fingers holding the harness handle, and that's about the right tension. I am using the short Seeing Eye leash though, so yours may be longer.
> It's really important not to forget and give a leash correction with the GL, or you could really hurt your dog.
>
> Good luck going back to work.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carmella Broome via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:32 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Carmella Broome
> Subject: [NAGDU] Gentle leaders and dog distractions
>
> Hi everyone, I don?t post here often but there is a wealth of knowledge, skill, and experience on this list and I appreciate the opportunity to tap into a little of that. I am looking for feedback about using the gentle leader head collar in general and to help with dog distractions, as in my dog being distracted by other dogs when out for walks. I would welcome experiences, tips, suggestions, and any constructive feedback anyone wants to offer. I know this topic has been addressed well and thoroughly on this list before on multiple occasions, but I can?t find a way to search the archives. If there is a way, I would really appreciate knowing what it is.
>
> I have recently begun introducing my dog to the gentle leader, along with distraction using praise and treats, to address an issue with my guide becoming excessively excited and distracted when encountering other dogs. She is a somewhat excitable and easily overstimulated yellow lab. She is seven but still very youthful in her energy level and health. I have been working dogs since 1996 and she is my third so I?m not new to all this, but each dog is different and goes through different stages and different needs during their working lives with us. I have never used a gentle leader with my other dogs so this is a training tool I am not all that familiar with.
>
> This problem of becoming very distracted and excited by other dogs when we are out walking for work or fun has developed, and has worsened, for several reasons, during the past few months. Some interactions are worse than others. The closer the dog is and the larger the other dog is, for example, the more reactive Brooklyn becomes.
>
> I felt the need to add the gentle leader to what I was already doing because of her tendency to lock onto the other dog visually. If I can?t break her concentration, her body follows her head and she becomes harder to control in her efforts to move forward to engage with the other dog. This can happen pretty quickly and causes me a lot of stress. Once she is past a certain point in this engagement process, She is less likely to respond if I try and get her to turn away or even turn around, and though she may initially sit and stay, she is likely to break this position if the dog comes close enough. I like the idea of having better control of her ability to keep looking towards the other dog and the ability to control her head and therefore her body.
>
> We are just starting to use the gentle leader. I am trying to get her more used to wearing it without shaking her head and pawing to try and remove it, even during walks. I put it on before she eats and for brief walks, mostly with the leash still attached to her collar just to get her used to wearing it. I have started briefly attaching the leash to it and giving her lots of praise for continuing to walk without paying attention to having it on her head. I also use verbal distraction and treats when she stops pawing, trying to rub it off on the ground, or shaking her head. This is pretty much the same approach I use when she is distracted by another dog, or anything else, and I want to get her attention back on something else I am asking her to do. This is improving a little at a time. As it does, I will lengthen the amount of time she wears it, with and without the leash attached.
>
> Walking this way is different for me, as well. It feels different than having her leash attached to her usual collar, obviously. It is harder to tell if I have enough slack on the leash, for example. I haven?t used it with her in harness yet. My husband guides me and I focus on working with her on a loose leash. I am not as sure how it will be once I start using it while she is actually working in harness, but she will need to be much more comfortable wearing it than she is right now. Right now, it is too much of a distraction at times.
>
> For now, what I am trying to do is avoid other dogs that may be likely to come close to us. She does well when other dogs are far enough away as far as me being able to get her to turn her head back towards me with verbal encouragement and praise followed by a treat. She knows when I give a certain verbal cue that she is to come towards my hand. I also rustle the treat bag as another audio cue. I don?t give her a treat every time, but have put a great deal of work into simply teaching her that when I say this phrase, I want her to turn away from wherever she is looking to seek out my hand and what may be in it. I do this if she is just gazing down the street, off into the distance, etc. She is doing well with this and it is like a game to her. She gets treats the majority of the time, as I am really stressing this behavior.
>
> Yesterday, we were out on a brief walk, still just focused on her and myself getting accustomed to the gl on a basic level. She was wearing the gl and doing well so I decided to hook the leash to it for a few quick minutes. This was maybe the second or third time I have done so. We were in an area where seeing another dog was not likely.
>
> Of course, during those few minutes of walking in a quiet area near our home, we unexpectedly encountered another dog walking on leash with its owner. We were approaching the end of a block and my husband saw the dog coming up the sidewalk just to our left when we got past some bushes and stuff. The dog would be passing behind us to cross the street next to, and slightly behind, us. It was closing the distance as they were walking at a nice pace and I knew how my dog was about to probably respond.
>
> Ready or not, out of necessity, I used the gentle leader to the best of my understanding to help control her head and therefore her body while encouraging her to not move from a sitting position facing away from the other dog. Each time she tried to turn her head to look, I applied gentle pressure so she could not do so and also was saying what I say to get her to move towards, and focus on, the treat in my hand. Every time she did what I wanted, praise and all that. We repeated this several times as the dog passed behind us. It helped that my husband was giving me verbal feedback about what my dog was doing, like when her eyes started to move back towards the dog before I could feel her head moving, at the same time.
>
> This combination seemed to work well. She did not get overly excited and was able to stay more focused on what I was doing rather than on the other dog. I felt very good about what happened, even though I would not have wanted to do that so soon in the process if it could have been avoided. Maybe part of it was that she was just a little more subdued having this new thing on her head, but I definitely think it helped. I hope this continues to be the case.
>
> We are new at this though. I would appreciate hearing about any experiences, suggestions, and perspectives on using the gentle leader from those who have used it a lot more than me. I want to make sure I am using it as effectively as possible to get the most out of incorporating it into what I?m doing. Any words of wisdom or feedback would be much appreciated. Any other thoughts about dealing with dog distractions would be welcome also.
>
> My first dog had dog distraction (and eventually aggression) issues and I want this situation to go much better than that one did. Correcting and verbal scolding definitely does not work as far as creating behavior change and is not recommended in this type of situation anyway. I prefer to reward a desired behavior rather than punish for an undesired one and I think we have a good plan going and just want to make it as good as it can be. She is a good dog, smart, and usually pretty eager to please. She is also spirited and needs some appropriate redirecting and management strategies for such times. This may also help with her tendency towards pulling harder than I would like sometimes, too, but that is much less of a concern at this point.
>
> Thanks for reading and in advance for any responses. As it happens, I am transitioning from working from home counseling clients virtually back to seeing clients in my workplace starting tomorrow. Brooklyn will be glad about that, as this has been a boring time for her (which surely also does not help our current problem). I am not as eager and the next few days are likely to be much busier and overwhelming, so it may take me some time to respond to any on or off list messages.
>
> Thanks and I hope everyone is staying well,
> Carmella in SC
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 11:09:32 -0400
> From: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Gentle leaders and dog distractions
> Message-ID:
> <CAAdv8fr4fRb4kc6vH3WR-2LXa6J5f3mpToi8ayoBo86sYg+UnA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi Carmella,
>
> I've used a head collar with two dogs for dog distractions, two dogs
> for sniffing, and one for scavenging. I've found it to be a fantastic
> tool, though I do prefer the Halti to the Gentle Leader for scavenging
> in particular.
>
> It sounds like you are doing a great job introducing the head collar
> slowly. When you say you practice with and without the leash attached,
> I'm assuming you mean with the leash attached to her regular collar?
> That is totally fine, but I wouldn't recommend leaving a head collar
> on a dog that is off leash entirely.
>
> I typically have one end of the leash attached to the correction
> collar, and the other end to the head collar. This allows me to still
> give a leash correction if necessary, while also benefiting from the
> feedback from the head collar. The head collar is even more effective
> if you hold the leash in your right hand in distracting environments.
> Remember you should never give a correction on a head collar. Instead,
> apply light constant pressure away from the distraction, or just give
> a tiny tug with a sliding motion instead of the sharp snap and release
> of a leash correction.
>
> I used the head collar in two different ways for dog distractions. My
> first dog was not originally dog distracted, but became highly
> reactive to off leash dogs and dogs on tie outs or behind invisible
> fences after negative encounters with 15+ loose dogs. For this dog, I
> put the head collar on when walking in areas where these situations
> were likely, often leaving the Halti on for the entire walk. The
> purpose of the Halti was mainly to allow me to physically restrain the
> dog should he lunge unexpectedly, because he is a large muscular dog.
>
> With my second dog, I use a headcollar a little differently, only
> keeping it on for a few minutes at a time. She is and has always been
> somewhat dog distracted. She is more likely to turn toward and stare
> at the other dog, not lunge. I'll put the head collar on her if we are
> in a place where we are likely to see multiple dogs in close proximity
> in a short period of time, like a pet store. I also use the head
> collar if I notice she is very strongly distracted. I will stop, put
> the head collar on, leave it on until we pass the distraction, and
> then take it off--no more than a few minutes. With this dog, the
> passive act of putting the head collar on causes her to behave like a
> perfect little angel. It allows me to reward the positive behavior I'm
> not getting with other methods, which causes her to be more likely to
> exhibit that behavior in the future. It can also simply be a
> management technique, to get her working past a distraction safely,
> knowing we need to put more work into training around the distraction
> in the future.
>
> For both dogs, I found that stopping and doing obedience (sit, stand,
> touch, etc) works OK for minor to moderate distractions. For strong
> distractions, I found one technique works significantly better than
> all others I've tried. At any sign of a strong distraction I stop,
> turn around, walk a few steps in the opposite direction, turn around
> again, and continue walking in the original direction. Once past the
> distraction, I reward (usually click/high value treat at first and
> then gradually reduce food rewards). This tends to work really well
> because it breaks the fixated stare, gives the dog an incompatible
> behavior to perform, sort of mimics reworking a work error, and shows
> the dog that they can't move closer to the interesting thing until
> they behave.
> Also, head collars cause some dogs to slow way down, but doesn't
> effect others at all. One of the three dogs I've used the headcollar
> on slowed down when wearing it, but the other two do not.
>
> Danielle, Thai, and Jackie
>
> On 5/18/20, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi Carmela.
>> Sounds like you are doing the right things.
>> For better or worse, I haven't used the GL much. I have had dogs since
>> 1980, but only got a GL with my last dog. He hated it, and would slow down
>> to a crawl if I put it on him, so I stopped. Krokus is much better with it,
>> but his problem is scavenging, and, even if I have the GL tight, he still
>> manages to grab things, and then I can't get them out of his mouth, so I
>> don't use it a lot.
>> It is true that just having it on calms him down a bit. That, or he's
>> thinking about how to get it off, instead of thinking about other things.
>> The configuration I like best is to put the big leash snap on his collar and
>> the little snap on the GL. I feel like that gives me better control. I
>> loop the leash around my fingers holding the harness handle, and that's
>> about the right tension. I am using the short Seeing Eye leash though, so
>> yours may be longer.
>> It's really important not to forget and give a leash correction with the GL,
>> or you could really hurt your dog.
>>
>> Good luck going back to work.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carmella Broome
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2020 7:32 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Carmella Broome
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Gentle leaders and dog distractions
>>
>> Hi everyone, I don?t post here often but there is a wealth of knowledge,
>> skill, and experience on this list and I appreciate the opportunity to tap
>> into a little of that. I am looking for feedback about using the gentle
>> leader head collar in general and to help with dog distractions, as in my
>> dog being distracted by other dogs when out for walks. I would welcome
>> experiences, tips, suggestions, and any constructive feedback anyone
>> wants to offer. I know this topic has been addressed well and thoroughly on
>> this list before on multiple occasions, but I can?t find a way to search the
>> archives. If there is a way, I would really appreciate knowing what it is.
>>
>> I have recently begun introducing my dog to the gentle leader, along with
>> distraction using praise and treats, to address an issue with my guide
>> becoming excessively excited and distracted when encountering other dogs.
>> She is a somewhat excitable and easily overstimulated yellow lab. She is
>> seven but still very youthful in her energy level and health. I have been
>> working dogs since 1996 and she is my third so I?m not new to all this, but
>> each dog is different and goes through different stages and different needs
>> during their working lives with us. I have never used a gentle leader
>> with my other dogs so this is a training tool I am not all that familiar
>> with.
>>
>> This problem of becoming very distracted and excited by other dogs when we
>> are out walking for work or fun has developed, and has worsened, for several
>> reasons, during the past few months. Some interactions are worse than
>> others. The closer the dog is and the larger the other dog is, for
>> example, the more reactive Brooklyn becomes.
>>
>> I felt the need to add the gentle leader to what I was already doing
>> because of her tendency to lock onto the other dog visually. If I can?t
>> break her concentration, her body follows her head and she becomes harder to
>> control in her efforts to move forward to engage with the other dog. This
>> can happen pretty quickly and causes me a lot of stress. Once she is past a
>> certain point in this engagement process, She is less likely to respond if
>> I try and get her to turn away or even turn around, and though she may
>> initially sit and stay, she is likely to break this position if the dog
>> comes close enough. I like the idea of having better control of her ability
>> to keep looking towards the other dog and the ability to control her head
>> and therefore her body.
>>
>> We are just starting to use the gentle leader. I am trying to get her more
>> used to wearing it without shaking her head and pawing to try and remove it,
>> even during walks. I put it on before she eats and for brief walks, mostly
>> with the leash still attached to her collar just to get her used to
>> wearing it. I have started briefly attaching the leash to it and giving her
>> lots of praise for continuing to walk without paying attention to having it
>> on her head. I also use verbal distraction and treats when she stops
>> pawing, trying to rub it off on the ground, or shaking her head. This is
>> pretty much the same approach I use when she is distracted by another dog,
>> or anything else, and I want to get her attention back on something else I
>> am asking her to do. This is improving a little at a time. As it does, I
>> will lengthen the amount of time she wears it, with and without the leash
>> attached.
>>
>> Walking this way is different for me, as well. It feels different than
>> having her leash attached to her usual collar, obviously. It is harder to
>> tell if I have enough slack on the leash, for example. I haven?t used it
>> with her in harness yet. My husband guides me and I focus on working with
>> her on a loose leash. I am not as sure how it will be once I start using it
>> while she is actually working in harness, but she will need to be much more
>> comfortable wearing it than she is right now. Right now, it is too much of
>> a distraction at times.
>>
>> For now, what I am trying to do is avoid other dogs that may be likely
>> to come close to us. She does well when other dogs are far enough away as
>> far as me being able to get her to turn her head back towards me with
>> verbal encouragement and praise followed by a treat. She knows when I
>> give a certain verbal cue that she is to come towards my hand. I also
>> rustle the treat bag as another audio cue. I don?t give her a treat every
>> time, but have put a great deal of work into simply teaching her that
>> when I say this phrase, I want her to turn away from wherever she is looking
>> to seek out my hand and what may be in it. I do this if she is just
>> gazing down the street, off into the distance, etc. She is doing well with
>> this and it is like a game to her. She gets treats the majority of the
>> time, as I am really stressing this behavior.
>>
>> Yesterday, we were out on a brief walk, still just focused on her and
>> myself getting accustomed to the gl on a basic level. She was wearing the
>> gl and doing well so I decided to hook the leash to it for a few quick
>> minutes. This was maybe the second or third time I have done so. We were in
>> an area where seeing another dog was not likely.
>>
>> Of course, during those few minutes of walking in a quiet area near our
>> home, we unexpectedly encountered another dog walking on leash with its
>> owner. We were approaching the end of a block and my husband saw the dog
>> coming up the sidewalk just to our left when we got past some bushes and
>> stuff. The dog would be passing behind us to cross the street next to,
>> and slightly behind, us. It was closing the distance as they were walking
>> at a nice pace and I knew how my dog was about to probably respond.
>>
>> Ready or not, out of necessity, I used the gentle leader to the best of my
>> understanding to help control her head and therefore her body while
>> encouraging her to not move from a sitting position facing away from the
>> other dog. Each time she tried to turn her head to look, I applied gentle
>> pressure so she could not do so and also was saying what I say to get her
>> to move towards, and focus on, the treat in my hand. Every time she did
>> what I wanted, praise and all that. We repeated this several times as the
>> dog passed behind us. It helped that my husband was giving me verbal
>> feedback about what my dog was doing, like when her eyes started to move
>> back towards the dog before I could feel her head moving, at the same time.
>>
>>
>> This combination seemed to work well. She did not get overly excited and
>> was able to stay more focused on what I was doing rather than on the other
>> dog. I felt very good about what happened, even though I would not have
>> wanted to do that so soon in the process if it could have been avoided.
>> Maybe part of it was that she was just a little more subdued having this
>> new thing on her head, but I definitely think it helped. I hope this
>> continues to be the case.
>>
>> We are new at this though. I would appreciate hearing about any experiences,
>> suggestions, and perspectives on using the gentle leader from those who
>> have used it a lot more than me. I want to make sure I am using it as
>> effectively as possible to get the most out of incorporating it into what
>> I?m doing. Any words of wisdom or feedback would be much appreciated. Any
>> other thoughts about dealing with dog distractions would be welcome also.
>>
>> My first dog had dog distraction (and eventually aggression) issues and I
>> want this situation to go much better than that one did. Correcting and
>> verbal scolding definitely does not work as far as creating behavior change
>> and is not recommended in this type of situation anyway. I prefer to
>> reward a desired behavior rather than punish for an undesired one and I
>> think we have a good plan going and just want to make it as good as it can
>> be. She is a good dog, smart, and usually pretty eager to please. She is
>> also spirited and needs some appropriate redirecting and management
>> strategies for such times. This may also help with her tendency towards
>> pulling harder than I would like sometimes, too, but that is much less of a
>> concern at this point.
>>
>> Thanks for reading and in advance for any responses. As it happens, I am
>> transitioning from working from home counseling clients virtually back to
>> seeing clients in my workplace starting tomorrow. Brooklyn will be glad
>> about that, as this has been a boring time for her (which surely also does
>> not help our current problem). I am not as eager and the next few days are
>> likely to be much busier and overwhelming, so it may take me some time to
>> respond to any on or off list messages.
>>
>> Thanks and I hope everyone is staying well,
>> Carmella in SC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
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