[nfb-talk] The NFB itself (was: Losing DVS)

Michael Hingson info at michaelhingson.com
Fri Jan 16 16:32:45 UTC 2009

All of you!

Nothing is being accomplished here!  The fact is that NO ONE has
demonstrated that the lack of "accessible money" rises to the level of
discrimination, the only position the NFB has taken.  The NFB has not said
that paper money is directly counter productive to blind people.

At the same time time after time we have seen that when some technological
advance is made on behalf of blind people the advancement is misinterpreted
by the public at large.

For example, audible traffic signals are now viewed as the means by which it
has become safe for blind people to cross the streets of America.  Bull!
Audible signals can be a help, but to say that not having them is
discriminatory causes more harm than good.  If the public believes that we
can only cross a street if there is an audible signal then those who promote
such devices are doing a disservice to all the blind by not educating the
public and by putting these devices in prospective.  In fact I have not seen
audible signal proponents do this.

It is unfortunate that Wisconsin is not providing descriptive video John,
but is it discriminatory?  I think not.  You can still watch tv.  Is closed
captioning, or rather the lack of it, discriminatory?  I am not a deaf
expert.  However, I submit humanity gets more of its information through
auditory means and so perhaps the lack of closed captioning is

As for the rest of you, John continues to argue and not look at a bigger
picture.  Why do y'all continue to fee him?

John, go back and look at tenBroek, the philosophy of blindness of the NFB
and the basics of our fundamental core values.  There ARE NO

Now let's move on!

Michael Hingson,
The Michael Hingson Group
84 Bahama Reef
Novato, CA 94949
Phone Direct number (415) 827-4084
Fax number (415) 883-6220
Mobile/Pager (888) 965-9191
info at michaelhingson.com
info at michaelhingson.com>
For information on Michael's speaking topics, his availability, and his
consulting services on Diversity and Access Technology for blind persons
visit <
For information on Guide Dogs for the Blind please visit <

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:04 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: [nfb-talk] The NFB itself (was: Losing DVS)


I've made this point so many times it's amazing to me that it still hasn't
sunk in... The NFB and it's leaders have taken several positions that by all
appearances seem to be counter to the best interests of blind people.  Yet
almost all the members of this list just accept them.

Before I'd accept Dr. Maurer's claim that accessible money is counter to my
best interests, I demand *proof*. Before I believe that I shouldn't be upset
about losing DVS, I want proof that the NFB acted in my best interests when
they aligned themselves with TV producers against the regulations that
mandated audio descriptions. Dr. Jernigan once wrote and published an essay
against the use of guide dogs claiming there was a conspiracy of silence
among sighted people to tolerate guide dogs. I want to know why he thought
that was so much more important than my safety and my ability to go from
point A to point B.

These are perfectly reasonable questions. any sensible person would behave
exactly the way I am behaving. I expect the NFB to look out for my best
interests and when they do things that by all appearances are counter to my
best interests, I get upset. Why shouldn't I get upset?!

Alan Wheeler keeps telling me that these are just my opinions. Yes, that's
true. But it is not just my opinion that accessible money would make it
easier for me to access my money, that DVS makes TV programs easier for me
to understand, and that my guide dog helps me get around. If the NFB and
it's leaders are going to take positions counter to my best interests, I
have every right to *demand* an explanation and to demand an explanation
that makes sense.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS

> Dewey:
> You ask us to think for ourselves.  I would urge you to do the same.  Your

> message seems to be saying that those of us who agree with NFB positions 
> aren't thinking.  It isn't necessarily so.  I have thought out different 
> topics and may well decide I completely agree with the NFB position.
> No one here should attack anybody else, whatever their position, but 
> people who agree with the NFB aren't necessarily thoughtless as you imply.
> Dave
> At 07:39 PM 1/15/2009, you wrote:
>>I thought this list was so that we could talk about blindness?
>>Some of us on here are members, but also have are own minds, I don't just 
>>follow, I have my own mind, It's good to see that someone else does as 
>>It's just like with the money thing, If It is made so that we can use It, 
>>then the NFB will tell you that no one will hire us, and most of the 
>>people on this list will just blindley follow.
>>Why don't anyone use there own head any more?
>>That's just like everyone voteing for who ever the media tells you to, 
>>what is wrong with people.
>>And I'm not trashing the NFB, I agree with most of the stuff they do, but 
>>some things I don't, but I'm not going to just not use my own head, I make

>>up my own mind, I don't have someone els do It for me.
>>It sounds like someone else on here is the same way, but everyone has to 
>>atack them, no one wants to hear something that they disagree with, they 
>>want to hear things that they agree with and nothing else. Blind people 
>>jump my case because I report the bus drivers for not calling out the 
>>stops, That makes blind people look bad I guess
>>stop attacking people just because they don't follow you blindley.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart" 
>><william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 5:17 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>Instead of wining at us, go forth and campaign for what you believe you
>>>need somewhere where it can possible do you some good.  Most of us do
>>>not share your belief.  So we are not going to try to force people to do
>>>what you want.
>>>You could, if you were so inclined, begin lobbying the government for
>>>what you want.  Before you claim that you cannot manage it as one
>>>person, you can align yourself with the ACB.  They are of the same mind
>>>set as yourself on this issue.
>>>All your posts have done here is reinforce the belief held by most of us
>>>that all you really want to do is complain about the NFB.  Take some
>>>positive action for a change and maybe we will take you more seriously.
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>On Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>The National Federation of the Blind -- note the word "blind" in the
>>>name --
>>>aligned itself withTV producers to overturn a FCC regulation that would
>>>meant that I'd still have DVS.  I lost my access to DVS because the NFB
>>>doesn't think it should be mandatory.
>>>Thanks NFB.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Wheeler" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:17 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>It's only your *OPINION* though that DVS should be mandatory.  You are
>>>>just mad because the NFB doesn't share your opinion.  Let's be honest
>>>>about it.
>>>>In Christ,
>>>>   Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
>>>>Deuteronomy 6:4
>>>>awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>Skype: redwheel1
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 08:47
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>Every time I criticize the NFB, all you people want to do is make it
>>>>>me. Well, as usual, I'm not going to allow that. This is not about
>>>me.  I
>>>>>going to discuss the issue whether you like it or not!
>>>>>I already provided a URL for a page that quotes the TV and movie
>>>>>using the NFB's own statements in it's legal argument.  These are
>>>>>If you don't like them, too bad.
>>>>>The NFB made a mistake in opposing the mandate for DVS. If the
>>>>>continued, I'd have DVS on my digital broadcast today. Now, the best
>>>>>do is argue that the mandate would have been over turned regardless
>>>>>the NFB did. Yet the fact remains that the NFB opposed the mandate
>>>>>almost certainly contributed to it being over turned.
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" 
>>>>><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>>>>>To: "Ray Foret jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>>>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 4:48 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Losing DVS
>>>>>>You're wasting your breath on this score.  The party line held by
>>>>>>organizations is that we oppose DVS, and anyone who stops supporting
>>>>>>does so because of us.  You've been baited.
>>>>>>On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 03:50:39PM -0600, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>>>>>>With all due respect, sir, you are wrong.  Before explaining why,
>>>let me
>>>>>>>suggest that you correct your own misinformation by reading all we
>>>>>>>say on the subject in the various Braille Monitors now available on
>>>>>>>site.  Maybe instead of spouting off in impulsive and emotional
>>>>>>>anger, you should better aquaint yourself with what we really said
>>>>>>>The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
>>>>>>>"Old friend, what are you looking for?  After those many years
>>>>>>>come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your
>>>>>>>George Seferis
>>>>>>>Phone or Fax::
>>>>>>>+1 (985) 360-3375
>>>>>>>Skype Name:
>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>7:10 PM
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