[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
Tanna G. Shoyo
tshoyo at neb.rr.com
Fri Oct 16 02:47:00 UTC 2009
It sounds like a case of judging a book by it's cover to me. Rock climbing
is a way to boost your confidence in your abilities. Let me pose this
question: Would you rather take a chance or stand on the side lines and
wonder what it would have been like to take that chance. I attempted to
climb a rock wall when I worked with blind youth and a few of my students
made it to the top and others couldn't get themselves off the ground. I
commend them because they tried.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
> Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make about the
> NFB. There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, but it doesn't
> accurately reflect the organization as a whole. If I shouldn't make
> assumptions like the one I was corrected on earlier, then generalizations
> like this one should not be allowed to stand, either, in my opinion.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>
>
>> In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back on
>> the part of the blind community that needs it most. This is exactly why
>> the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't for everyone.
>> You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy (or gal) to
>> receive services from the NFB.
>>
>> The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this
>> world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and
>> everything will be rosy. But I'd like to see some real evidence that
>> rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little doubt
>> that those who go through with the climbing do better than those who
>> don't. But that's most likely because they're more motivated in the first
>> place. Of course people who are willing to climb rocks do better than
>> those who don't. But what about all those people who are scared away from
>> the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the NFB have a
>> responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an even *greater*
>> responsibility to help those people?
>>
>> Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people who
>> don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help people who
>> probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really messed up,
>> well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or gal) we're not
>> interested in helping you.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>
>>> Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>> successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to rethink
>>> their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice
>>> rules!
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>> It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center.
>>> Everything is
>>> discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>
>>> -original message-
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>> From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>
>>> oh yea,
>>>
>>> try getting out of it!
>>>
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>> No one is forced. It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them
>>>>> for
>>>>> the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would
>>>>> imagine
>>>>> that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be
>>>>> very
>>>>> difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>> places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to
>>>>> sign
>>>>> up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found out
>>>>> I
>>>>> was blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>> shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with
>>>>> state
>>>>> governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>> these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>> shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>> following
>>>>>> yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>> centers
>>>>>> which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Nebraska?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A. Yes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>> other complications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>> agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>> statement
>>>>>> that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>> These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>> including
>>>>>> participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing. Such
>>>>>> exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to
>>>>>> "Menuize"
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if they
>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>> to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> individual basis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>> activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services from
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> NFB agencies?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A.
>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if a
>>>>>> student
>>>>>> chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center students
>>>>>> must
>>>>>> attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>> orientation
>>>>>> and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the
>>>>>> entire
>>>>>> center curriculum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a badly
>>>>>> sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to say,
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of time!
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this person
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person my
>>>>>> age
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s and
>>>>>> 30s, I
>>>>>> wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and beyond,
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>> climbing,
>>>>>> skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several
>>>>>> accounts
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in
>>>>>> all
>>>>>> aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so published
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident prevent
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>> accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>> complete
>>>>>> the initial part of their training but returned later to finish. This
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> not be a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>> professionals
>>>>>> are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>> and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for a
>>>>>> doctor
>>>>>> to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>> participate
>>>>>> in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>> and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>> presented
>>>>>> with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>> attend a
>>>>>> sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered and
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the
>>>>>> possibility
>>>>>> that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>> climbing
>>>>>> even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>> believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>> activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>> reread your post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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