[nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
Ray Foret jr
rforetjr at comcast.net
Fri Oct 16 21:46:25 UTC 2009
John, the fundamental problem is this. You always do think it's about you.
You want us to take your opinion seriously, but, you don't take us
seriously. Face it. You hate the NFB; and, whether or not you admit it's
true, it is. You just sit around on the lists and wait for a subject to
come up that you think you can grab on to that's a hot button issue and then
you jump on it; for example, this so-called rock climbing issue. Jim has
already said several times on this list that he has the information he feels
he needs and is willing to let the matter drop. You don't seem to be able
to do that. John, ansewr me something. Have you nothing better to do with
your time than hate us? I think that's a fair question. Why? Because you
seem to b a person who has a necessity for your hatred. You seem not to be
happy unless you're hating someone or something involving the NFB. The NFB
DOES, NOT, TELL, PEOPLE, HOW, TO, LIVE, EVERY, ASPECT, OF, THERE, LIVES!!!
You seem to think it does. I've seen people on this list try to reason
with you in a calm and deliberate fashion. I've seen others come at you
with a much stronger tone. No matter how we respond to you, you always do
the same think. Why don't you jus go away and Barry yourself in the Meir of
your bitterness and hatred? But no. You won't do that. You'll respond to
my message with yet more childish hatred and spew your venom all over us yet
again. I know you will, because, that's all you do. Well, go right ahead.
I can take it. You really need to let go of your constant anger against us.
You'll get a stroke before you turn 50.
Sincerely,
The Constantly BAREFOOTED Ray
"Old friend, what are you looking for? After those many years abroad you
come With images you tended Under foreign skies Far away from your own land"
George Seferis
Phone or Fax::
+1 (985) 360-3614
Cell:
+1 (985) 791-2938
e-mail:
rforetjratcomcastdotnet
Skype Name:
barefootedray
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
I've already addressed this issue many, many times on this list. The NFB is
by its own admission, the largest and most influential organization for the
blind in the United States. Even if it were possible for me to ignore the
NFB , I shouldn't be expected to.
When I see any group, the NFB, ACB, FBI, CIA, NAACP or any other group doing
something that I consider unjust, it is my obligation as a human being to
speak out. But this is especially true since the NFB is an organization for
blind people and I'm blind. Its appalling that you think I should ignore a
situation where the NFB is doing something unjust especially since it is
getting government funding to do so.
Why do the people on this list always want to make these debates about me?
This isn't about me. It's about the NFB and it's policies. If you can't
address my arguments, my facts, and my logic, then don't say anything. Or
admit that for once the NFB might be wrong.
The real problem is the basic NFB philosophy. This rock climbing policy is
just another example of a pattern of poor policy decisions that all spring
from that same source. It permiates virtually every policy decision the NFB
makes. If you get your money mixed up, you need to improve your
organizational skills. If you like audible walk signals, you need to improve
your mobility skills. No, I don't.
The reason I can't tell one bill from another is not because I lack
organizational skills. It's because they're all the same. The government
prints different numbers on bills so sighted people can tell them apart. My
problem with American currency is that there is no way for blind people to
tell them apart. It has nothing to do with my organizational skills.
And cities put up visual traffic signals to help sighted people cross the
street. That's why walk signals with the little blinking green guy telling
people to go and a blinking red had telling them to stop exist. My problems
crossing streets have nothing to do with my mobility skills. My problems are
caused by the fact that I don't have access to the same traffic signals that
sighted people have.
The basic philosophy of the NFB, that blindness can be reduced to a mere
nuiscance is simply not true. Yes, it's true for many of us but not for all.
Not everyone can be super blind guy (or gal).
Are you listening to me? Maybe I should have put this point at the top of
the page... Blindness simply cannot be reduced to a mere nuiscance. Not for
everyone.
---- Original Message -----
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
> John:
>
> The NFB is not telling you that you have to do this or that to be a good
> blind person, or that you have to go here or there, to be trained. We
> offer an alternative -- we operate a few centers and have influenced a few
> others. However, there are lots of other places in the country to receive
> training. Our approach was developed by blind persons, for blind persons
> and it works for many people. It however isn't the only approach, and no
> one is forcing you to go, participate, or even agree.
>
> You seem to easily take offense at much we say and do. I am not sure why.
> If we are so wrong then just ignore us!
>
> Dave
>
> At 09:11 AM 10/16/2009, you wrote:
>>Your question, "Would you rather take a chance or stand on the side lines
>>and wonder what it would have been like to take that chance?", is what is
>>known as a false dichotomy. The truth is that it's not an either-or
>>situation. I don't lack confidence so I'm not going to wonder what would
>>have happened if I'd tried rock climbing.
>>
>>Again... The NFB should not assume that each and every blind person needs
>>to have their confidence boosted. I resent the assumption that if I
>>wanted to get training at an NFB center, I'd have to prove that I have
>>confidence. If any other organization asked me to prove that, I'd tell
>>them to go ... somewhere.
>>
>>Here's the deal... If the NFB really wants us to be tough, strong,
>>independent people, why is it telling us how to live our lives? You want
>>to see true independence, well, here it is! I am not going to let the NFB
>>or anybody else tell me how to live my life. I don't want anyone assuming
>>that I lack confidence simply because I am blind. I don't want the NFB or
>>anybody else judging my character based solely upon the fact that I am
>>blind.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tanna G. Shoyo" <tshoyo at neb.rr.com>
>>To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>
>>
>>>It sounds like a case of judging a book by it's cover to me. Rock
>>>climbing is a way to boost your confidence in your abilities. Let me
>>>pose this question: Would you rather take a chance or stand on the side
>>>lines and wonder what it would have been like to take that chance. I
>>>attempted to climb a rock wall when I worked with blind youth and a few
>>>of my students made it to the top and others couldn't get themselves off
>>>the ground. I commend them because they tried.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:48 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ah the classic "super blindy" generalization people like to make about
>>>>the NFB. There may be some in the NFB with this attitude, but it
>>>>doesn't accurately reflect the organization as a whole. If I shouldn't
>>>>make assumptions like the one I was corrected on earlier, then
>>>>generalizations like this one should not be allowed to stand, either, in
>>>>my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:46 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In my opinion, it's just another example of the NFB turning it's back
>>>>>on the part of the blind community that needs it most. This is
>>>>>exactly why the NFB philosophy is so harmful. Rock climbing just isn't
>>>>>for everyone. You shouldn't have to be super, rock climbing blind guy
>>>>>(or gal) to receive services from the NFB.
>>>>>
>>>>>The NFB philosophy blames the victim. If you aren't making it in this
>>>>>world, it's your own fault. Get in here and get some climbing in and
>>>>>everything will be rosy. But I'd like to see some real evidence that
>>>>>rock climbing makes any difference what so ever. Oh, I have little
>>>>>doubt that those who go through with the climbing do better than those
>>>>>who don't. But that's most likely because they're more motivated in the
>>>>>first place. Of course people who are willing to climb rocks do better
>>>>>than those who don't. But what about all those people who are scared
>>>>>away from the NFB centers because they have to climb rocks? Doesn't the
>>>>>NFB have a responsibility to aid those people too? Don't they have an
>>>>>even *greater* responsibility to help those people?
>>>>>
>>>>>Essentially, the NFB philosophy says we're only going to help people
>>>>>who don't really need our help that much. We're only going to help
>>>>>people who probably would make it on their own anyway. If you're really
>>>>>messed up, well, too bad for you. If you're not super blind guy (or
>>>>>gal) we're not interested in helping you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>To: "Chad Allen" <chad at chadallenmagic.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List"
>>>>><nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:43 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Anyone who doesn't want to fulfill this requirement for
>>>>>>successful completion of training at one of our centers needs to
>>>>>>rethink
>>>>>>their choice of orientation and adjustment center. Informed choice
>>>>>>rules!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Allen"
>>>>>><chad at chadallenmagic.com>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 12:03 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is considered a requirement for graduation from the center.
>>>>>>Everything is
>>>>>>discussed prior to enrollment and is simply par for the course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-original message-
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>From: "Bryan Schulz" <b.schulz at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>Date: 10/15/2009 10:31 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>oh yea,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>try getting out of it!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bryan Schulz
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" <awheeler at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:44 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No one is forced. It is, to my knowledge, just an option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim"
>>>>>>><jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:03 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm unclear as to the purpose of these centers? Do people go to them
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>the opportunity to do things like rock climbing? Because I would
>>>>>>>>imagine
>>>>>>>>that if the NFB didn't provide opportunities like that, it would be
>>>>>>>>very
>>>>>>>>difficult to find them otherwise. I can't imagine most rock climbing
>>>>>>>>places letting blind people participate. Heck, one time I tried to
>>>>>>>>sign
>>>>>>>>up for a wood working class and they kicked me out when they found
>>>>>>>>out I
>>>>>>>>was blind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But if a person wants to work on his job and mobility skills, he
>>>>>>>>shouldn't be forced to climb rocks. I wouldn't have a problem with
>>>>>>>>state
>>>>>>>>governments supporting recreational facilities for the blind. But if
>>>>>>>>these centers are intended primarily as rehab centers, then they
>>>>>>>>shouldn't be forcing people to climb rocks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>---- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>>>>>>>><pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 4:17 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] NFB Centers and Rock Climbing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hello Jim and listers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Okay let me take a stab at this one. I'll insert my comments
>>>>>>>>>following
>>>>>>>>>yours and will indicate them with the letter A. Here goes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hello all!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Do all NFB centers insist that clients rock climb? I'm referring
>>>>>>>>>to the
>>>>>>>>>three NFB centers in Minnesota, Colorado, and Louisiana as well as
>>>>>>>>>centers
>>>>>>>>>which are a part of a state's rehab program as is the case in Iowa
>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>Nebraska?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>A. Yes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can a client be exempt from this exercise due to health, age or
>>>>>>>>>other complications?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>>> Each case is considered on an individual basis.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Have people been denied services from all of the above
>>>>>>>>>agencies if they refused to rock climb or they obtained a doctor's
>>>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>>>that they shouldn't engage in such activity?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>A.
>>>>>>>>> Recall the discussion of informed choice we've had from
>>>>>>>>> time-to-time.
>>>>>>>>>These centers have a set curriculum students are required to take
>>>>>>>>>including
>>>>>>>>>participation in recreational activities such as rock climbing.
>>>>>>>>>Such
>>>>>>>>>exemptions could be viewed as attempts by center students to
>>>>>>>>>"Menuize"
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>training. They never realize the full benefit of the program if
>>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>attempt
>>>>>>>>>to "Water down" these center curriculums by requesting exemptions
>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>or that part of the training. Here again each case is considered on
>>>>>>>>>an
>>>>>>>>>individual basis.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What exempts people from this
>>>>>>>>>activity and if they are exempt, can they still receive services
>>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>>>NFB agencies?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A.
>>>>>>>>> Much of my answer can be found above but I'll add here that if
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>student
>>>>>>>>>chooses not to participate in a class or activity all center
>>>>>>>>>students
>>>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>>attend or take part in they should reconsider their choice of
>>>>>>>>>orientation
>>>>>>>>>and adjustment center if they're unwilling to participate in the
>>>>>>>>>entire
>>>>>>>>>center curriculum.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>A friend of mine returned from one of these centers. He has a
>>>>>>>>>badly
>>>>>>>>>sprained leg or he has pulled ligaments in his leg! Needless to
>>>>>>>>>say, he
>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>out of the program or is immobile for an undetermined amount of
>>>>>>>>>time!
>>>>>>>>>This
>>>>>>>>>person was otherwise happy with the program and I commend this
>>>>>>>>>person
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>giving it a good try but I think there comes a time when a person
>>>>>>>>>my age
>>>>>>>>>who
>>>>>>>>>is twice 30 shouldn't attempt such a thing! If I were in my 20s
>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>30s, I
>>>>>>>>>wouldn't question this but when one is in their late 40s and
>>>>>>>>>beyond, I'd
>>>>>>>>>question whether this is such a good idea!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Any thoughts?A.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our centers have had students in their 80s participate in roc
>>>>>>>>>climbing,
>>>>>>>>>skydiving, and other high-impact activities. There are several
>>>>>>>>>accounts
>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>blind senior citizens that attended our centers and participated in
>>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>>aspects of their programs and had a darn good time doing so
>>>>>>>>>published in
>>>>>>>>>The
>>>>>>>>>Braille Monitor. Your friend needs to not allow his accident
>>>>>>>>>prevent him
>>>>>>>>>from returning to the NFB center to finish his training. There are
>>>>>>>>>numerous
>>>>>>>>>accounts of students who due to accident or illness were unable to
>>>>>>>>>complete
>>>>>>>>>the initial part of their training but returned later to finish.
>>>>>>>>>This
>>>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>>>not be a problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as doctors exemptions go remember that health care
>>>>>>>>>professionals
>>>>>>>>>are influanced by the same prevailing attitudes and beliefs about
>>>>>>>>>blindness
>>>>>>>>>and our capabilities as is the general public. It would be easy for
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>doctor
>>>>>>>>>to "issue a letter requesting that a student not be required to
>>>>>>>>>participate
>>>>>>>>>in this or that part of the center program due to these mistaken
>>>>>>>>>attitudes
>>>>>>>>>and beliefs about the blind. What happens if that same doctor is
>>>>>>>>>presented
>>>>>>>>>with a health report for a blind individual in their 80s wishing to
>>>>>>>>>attend a
>>>>>>>>>sports camp where rock climbing is one of the activities offered
>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>patient chooses to participate in that activity. There's the
>>>>>>>>>possibility
>>>>>>>>>that the doctor may discourage this person from engaging in rock
>>>>>>>>>climbing
>>>>>>>>>even though the person is healthy. They can thank the patient who
>>>>>>>>>mistakenly
>>>>>>>>>believed that older blind individuals shouldn't participate in this
>>>>>>>>>activity. Let me recommend that you take some rock climbing lessons
>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>then
>>>>>>>>>reread your post.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I hope I was able to shed some light on this issue for you. All
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Peter Donahue
>
>
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