[nfb-talk] SSI or not

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri Apr 23 14:57:10 UTC 2010


Well, Michael, are you running for Congress?   I hate to yank your chain but 
aren't you doing exactly what you're accusing others of? If you think more 
blind people should run for Congress, go ahead.

And, no, the NFB is not doing what Ray wants. The NFB is supporting the 
Blind Persons Right to Work Act which would allow blind people to continue 
to receive benefits for a period of time after they become employed.  If 
anything, it is an expansion of the program, not getting rid of it.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:09 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] SSI or not


Hi,

I am a bit lost here.  Isn't what Ray proposes what the NFB is doing?  Many
not on SSI as well as many more who are all are working together to work
with congress to provide not only incentives to go off that program but also
methods by which blind people can gain more of a foothold in the work force.
For years this organization has been educating where it can.

What we need is for individuals to work through their chapters to develop a
louder and stronger voice.

Here is a thought.  When are some of us going to run for and get elected to
congress?  We all talk about what Congress should do, why don't we become
part of the process to make it happen?


The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com


for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com




-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 2:54 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives

What the heck are you talking about? I offered Ray a real way to start
implementing his ideas. You could hardly be *less* dogmatic than that.

Ray offers this completely unrealistic idea for doing away with SSI and I
offer him a realistic way to make a difference, however small,  and *I* am
the one accused of being dogmatic?  Its insane.

---- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives


> John, you are not reading past Ray's conservative politics to the crux of
> the problem -- you're both trying to solve the same problem I believe --
> Ray
> is just musing on how to do that from one approach, you from another. You
> are being as dogmatic as you say Ray is, but of course it is good you are
> employed and attempting a solution.
> I grew up trying to beat the stereotypes and do as much as possible -- I
> won't bore everyone more with that, but I wanted to add that it was nice
> when I was in school to have the government programs available to help the
> process along.
> I think Ray is just saying that the handouts should be temporary, right
> Ray?
> Now before I get in more hot water I'll leave you both to your sniping.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
> Ray,
>
> Why do you keep saying somebody should do this or somebody should do that?
> Why don't you just do it?
>
> I'll tell you what... I am the President of a non-profit called the
> International Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. See
> http://www.iavit.org. We could use someone to maintain our web site.  If
> you
> can gather enough donations to IAVIT, we'll hire the person of your choice
> to maintain our web site. They'll have to be qualified, of course. But you
> can pick someone currently on SSI and we'll give them a job.
>
> PS: You really need to knock  off this hhonesty bullstuff.  People with
> opinions that differ from yours aren't simply being dishonest. That's
> insulting because it implies that you have some kind of monopoly on the
> truth. You don't. In fact, you have nothing but your unsubstantiated
> opinions. When I've asked you for substantiation, you have mrely repeated
> your opinions as if that proves them.  So knock it off with the intestinal
> fortitude and honesty stuff. If you want me to believe you're right then
> prove it.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>> Agreed, we are not there yet.  Perhaps what is needed is some individual
>> or group of individuals composed of blind people who are no longer on SSI
>> and who are federationists to seriously sit down and ask the question,
>> just how can we help those on SSI and who do have legitimate need get off
>> SSI and in to good jobs?  Maybe one individual could start a networking
>> process that might lead eventually to some better solution.  Look, folks,
>> if we say that the simplist solution is just to leave things as they are,
>> how can we any longer say that we're inovaative about providing or trying
>> to provide solutions to these very real world problems.  No, our
>> solutions
>> most likely won't be perfect, but, can we not even be honest with
>> ourselves enough to admit that we do need some better way?
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>
>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>
>> e-mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> skype:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 7:19 PM, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to do
>>> with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your language
>>> in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think accomplishes
>>> more than some previous messages.  People get caught up in this and that
>>> and don't hear the message.
>>>
>>> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price for
>>> things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to high,
>>> but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.
>>>
>>> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale replacement
>>> is slim.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
>>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
>>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a
>>>> crime
>>>> in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can
>>>> get.
>>>> Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual
>>>> fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something
>>>> better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI
>>>> and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work.
>>>> I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to
>>>> go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much
>>>> money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with
>>>> all due respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not
>>>> saying that those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even
>>>> be honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our
>> current set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS
>> that too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in
>> this
>> message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
>> late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we
>> come too?
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of sense
>>>> > to
>>>> > me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this notion is
>>>> > that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
>>>> > believe
>>>> > we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to society.
>>>> > These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even what
>>>> > Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a sense
>>>> > of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types are no
>>>> > longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>>>> > having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize reality.  To
>>>> > extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>> > just a theory.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>> >> discussing
>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view. Far
>>>> >> too many
>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for reasons
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for disaster.
>>>> >> That's
>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
>>>> >
>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking of
>>>> >> calling
>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
>>>> >> speech.
>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not just
>>>> >> because
>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so important is
>>>> >> that it
>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>> >> other in a
>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
>>>> >> Its
>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>>>> >
>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of ideas
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> their
>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
>>>> >> people
>>>> >> to do.
>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start casting
>>>> >> about
>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that is a
>>>> >> recipe
>>>> >> for wrongness.
>>>> >
>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>> >> believe, you
>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
>>>> >> chess
>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
>>>> >> of my
>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get
>>>> >> a
>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my
>>>> >> opponent's
>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not see?
>>>> >> Is he
>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was like
>>>> >> magic.
>>>> >
>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the importance
>>>> >> of
>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there is
>>>> >> how few
>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess
>>>> >> players.
>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>> >> opinions, take
>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or
>>>> >> not.
>>>> >> Do
>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>>>> >> beliefs?
>>>> >> Do I
>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the facts?
>>>> >> If
>>>> >> more
>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>>>> >> would
>>>> >> be a
>>>> >> better place.
>>>> >
>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>> >
>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as conservative
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been used
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>> >
>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into
>>>> >> anger
>>>> >> and
>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and
>>>> >> others
>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
>>>> >> our
>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>> >> disintegrate
>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political leanings.
>>>> >> Knock off
>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each other
>>>> >> names and
>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it
>>>> >> is
>>>> >> to
>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind
>>>> >> Americans
>>>> >> should have.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Mike Hingson
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> >> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >
>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Sincerely,
>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>> >
>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>> >
>>>> >> E-Mail:
>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> >> Skype:
>>>> >> barefootedray
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally you
>>>> >>> refrain
>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The correct
>>>> >> term is
>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> RyanO,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue
>>>> >>>> stand
>>>> >>>> for
>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at perhaps
>>>> >> some
>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But why?
>>>> >> It's the
>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor
>>>> >> blind
>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
>>>> >> many
>>>> >> of us,
>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of us
>>>> >> don't
>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
>>>> >> we do,
>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand,
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> make
>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system.
>>>> >> What,
>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
>>>> >> blind
>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>> >> government will
>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It
>>>> >>>> personally
>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
>>>> >> fellow
>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
>>>> >> hate
>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the blind.  That
>>>> >> turns my
>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the federation
>>>> >> fail to
>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
>>>> >> in bed
>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
>>>> >> hoping
>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
>>>> >> book
>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to ride
>>>> >> the back
>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
>>>> >> however,
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here, I
>>>> >> personally
>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is the
>>>> >> fact
>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
>>>> >> have to
>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
>>>> >> that
>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
>>>> >> looked
>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be enough.
>>>> >> What I
>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>> >> but
>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>> >> entitlement
>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> >>>> Skype:
>>>> >>>> barefootedray
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Dave
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to
>>>> >>>>> reach
>>>> >>>>> out
>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative to
>>>> >> come speak
>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>> >> issues. We
>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
>>>> >> our
>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
>>>> >> phone
>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
>>>> >> "Obama
>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and hurt.
>>>> >>>>> We
>>>> >>>>> tried
>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we didn't
>>>> >> matter.
>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second option
>>>> >> was to
>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>> >> levels.
>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires.
>>>> >>>>> It
>>>> >>>>> is
>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
>>>> >> welcome
>>>> >> on
>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
>>>> >> spirit of
>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion fosters
>>>> >> a more
>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I
>>>> >>>>> plan
>>>> >>>>> to
>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information, please
>>>> >> Email
>>>> >> me at
>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> RyanO
>>>
>>>
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