[nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

[John G. Heim]

Yeah, I'm surprised other disability groups haven't put up a stink by now. 
I'd be in favor of doing away with it just on a matter of principle but I 
don't think its a big deal.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption


> There's no way of checking short of a survey of all employers.  But my 
> point
> is if they are going to make a checkbox for blind citizens, why not put a
> box for deafness? or any other disability or medical problem?
> Why single out blind people? That I think would put a question in people's
> minds.
> --le
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
> Wow, it is really a stretch to suggest that that little check box
> contributes to the unemployment rate. I don't think its a significant 
> issue
> either way. What would you say? If the unemployment rate is 70%, would it 
> be
> 50% without that check box? I doubt that. I doubt it contributes one tenth
> of one percent to the unemployment rate. I doubt you could measure the
> difference that check box makes.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:48 PM
> Subject: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
>> We tell ourselves that we have added expenses -- but I am not sure this 
>> is
>> true.  We have different expenses, readers, drivers, cabs, etc., but in
>> general we don't have to buy cars and auto insurance.  They are quite
>> expensive, so I think that for most people it is a wash.
>>
>> As to the extra exemption -- I take it too, to not take it won't make any
>> difference in the system so there is no reason not to take it.  However,
>> everybody who fills out a tax return sees that you get an extra break 
>> from
>> the government, like the elderly.  Why -- because you need it, you can't
>> do for yourself so you need government help.  Everybody sees that and I
>> think it does us great damage, and contributes to our high unemployment
>> rate.
>>
>> But we are not well enough off, and self aware enough, as a group, to
>> reject that benefit.
>>
>> I suspect many people will disagree with me, and say it does no harm, but
>> I don't believe that for one.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> At 05:23 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
>>>considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong with
>>>the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to accept it
>>>without shame or guilt.
>>>Chuck
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ray:
>>>>
>>>>I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to do
>>>>with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your language
>>>>in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think accomplishes
>>>>more than some previous messages.  People get caught up in this and that
>>>>and don't hear the message.
>>>>
>>>>I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price for
>>>>things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to high,
>>>>but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there yet.
>>>>
>>>>No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale replacement
>>>>is slim.
>>>>
>>>>Dave
>>>>
>>>>At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
>>>>>fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
>>>>>way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a 
>>>>>crime
>>>>>in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one can 
>>>>>get.
>>>>>Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the eventual
>>>>>fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create something
>>>>>better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to shut down SSI
>>>>>and social security.  those things punish the blind for trying to work.
>>>>>I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person tries to
>>>>>go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and yet, too much
>>>>>money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It happened to me.  So, with
>>>>>all due respect, don't tell me I know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not
>>>>>saying that those who need help should not get it; but, can we not even
>>>>>be honest with ourselves and each other about the fact that our current
>>>>>set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that 
>>>>>too
>>>>>hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this
>>>>>message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
>>>>>late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have
>>>>>we come too?
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
>>>>>sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
>>>>>notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
>>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
>>>>>believe we need to think about the cost of what we
>>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
>>>>>society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
>>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
>>>>>what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
>>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
>>>>>sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
>>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
>>>>>are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
>>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
>>>>>having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
>>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
>>>>>reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
>>>>> > just a theory.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
>>>>> >> discussing
>>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view.
>>>>>Far too many
>>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
>>>>> reasons >> to
>>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
>>>>>disaster.  That's
>>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking
>>>>>of calling
>>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom
>>>>> of >> speech.
>>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
>>>>>just because
>>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
>>>>>important is that it
>>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
>>>>>other in a
>>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea
>>>>> wins. >> Its
>>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
>>>>>ideas to their
>>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
>>>>>people to do.
>>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
>>>>>casting about
>>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that
>>>>>is a recipe
>>>>> >> for wrongness.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
>>>>>believe, you
>>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a
>>>>> better >> chess
>>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost
>>>>> almost all of >> my
>>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are
>>>>> my >> opponent's
>>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
>>>>>see? Is he
>>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was
>>>>>like magic.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
>>>>> importance >> of
>>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there
>>>>>is how few
>>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy
>>>>> chess >> players.
>>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
>>>>>opinions, take
>>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working
>>>>> or not. >> Do
>>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
>>>>>beliefs? Do I
>>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
>>>>>facts?  If more
>>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
>>>>>would be a
>>>>> >> better place.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
>>>>> conservative >> and
>>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have
>>>>> been used >> to
>>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate
>>>>> into anger >> and
>>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen
>>>>> before.  I and >> others
>>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
>>>>>disintegrate
>>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
>>>>>leanings.  Knock off
>>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
>>>>>other names and
>>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the
>>>>> NFB it is >> to
>>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all
>>>>> blind >> Americans
>>>>> >> should have.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Mike Hingson
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
>>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On
>>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Sincerely,
>>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> E-Mail:
>>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> >> Skype:
>>>>> >> barefootedray
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally
>>>>>you refrain
>>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
>>>>>correct term is
>>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" >>>
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> RyanO,
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long
>>>>> overdue stand >>>> for
>>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
>>>>> perhaps >> some
>>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But
>>>>>why?  It's the
>>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We
>>>>> poor >> blind
>>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
>>>>>many of us,
>>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more
>>>>> of us >> don't
>>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work.
>>>>> When we >> do,
>>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other
>>>>> hand, we >> make
>>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security
>>>>> system. >> What,
>>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
>>>>> >> blind
>>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
>>>>>government will
>>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
>>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true
>>>>> federationism.  It >>>> personally
>>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still
>>>>> that my >> fellow
>>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
>>>>> >> hate
>>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
>>>>>blind.  That turns my
>>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
>>>>>federation fail to
>>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable
>>>>> being in >> bed
>>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was
>>>>> sincerely >> hoping
>>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital
>>>>> talking >> book
>>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
>>>>>ride the back
>>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
>>>>> however, >> that
>>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here,
>>>>>I personally
>>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, 
>>>>> >>>> an
>>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about
>>>>> is the >> fact
>>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going
>>>>> to have >> to
>>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be
>>>>> looking for >> that
>>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're
>>>>> being >> looked
>>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
>>>>>enough.  What I
>>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
>>>>>entitlement
>>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
>>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>> >>>> Skype:
>>>>> >>>> barefootedray
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Dave
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked
>>>>> to reach >>>>> out
>>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
>>>>>to come speak
>>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
>>>>>issues. We
>>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
>>>>> >> our
>>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several
>>>>> days of >> phone
>>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was
>>>>> because, >> "Obama
>>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
>>>>>hurt. We tried
>>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
>>>>>didn't matter.
>>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being 
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second
>>>>>option was to
>>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>>>>> >> levels.
>>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush
>>>>> Fires. It >>>>> is
>>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
>>>>> welcome >> on
>>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In
>>>>> the spirit >> of
>>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
>>>>>fosters a more
>>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough,
>>>>> I plan >>>>> to
>>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
>>>>> please >> Email
>>>>> >> me at
>>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> RyanO
>>
>>
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