[nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

David Andrews dandrews at visi.com
Sat Apr 24 03:38:46 UTC 2010


Brian:

You will note that I didn't say "I know the exemption hurts 
employment."  I believe it could, it certainly isn't helping 
attitude-wise, it seems to me.  It might not be as bad as I say, you 
may be right, but it may be, and you may be wrong.  Either way, we 
are not sure, and while it helps us financially, I don't think anyone 
would say it helps us in other ways too.  So, if it doesn't help us 
with attitudes, and it might hurt us, I think it should go -- but I 
know this is not a majority view, nor a view whose time has come.

Dave
At 10:26 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
>I agree with the reader/driver thing in terms of the expenses being a wash.
>
>
>I'm less convinced when it comes to buying adaptive equipment -- in a world
>where JAWS costs over $1,000, I'll take the exemption.  Maybe when we all
>switch to MACs this will no longer be an issue.
>
>I also don't buy the tax exemption = impact on hiring argument.  I just
>think this is too tenuous a thread.  There are certainly other kinds of
>things in the environment that may lead someone to think this, but I very
>much doubt 98%of people would make that connection between the exemption and
>inability to work.
>
>Brian M
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>Behalf Of David Andrews
>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 10:49 PM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>We tell ourselves that we have added expenses -- but I am not sure this is
>true.  We have different expenses, readers, drivers, cabs, etc., but in
>general we don't have to buy cars and auto insurance.  They are quite
>expensive, so I think that for most people it is a wash.
>
>As to the extra exemption -- I take it too, to not take it won't make any
>difference in the system so there is no reason not to take it.  However,
>everybody who fills out a tax return sees that you get an extra break from
>the government, like the elderly.  Why -- because you need it, you can't do
>for yourself so you need government help.  Everybody sees that and I think
>it does us great damage, and contributes to our high unemployment rate.
>
>But we are not well enough off, and self aware enough, as a group, to reject
>that benefit.
>
>I suspect many people will disagree with me, and say it does no harm, but I
>don't believe that for one.
>
>Dave
>
>
>At 05:23 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
> >considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong
> >with the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to accept
> >it without shame or guilt.
> >Chuck
> >----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> >To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
> >Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >
> >
> >>Ray:
> >>
> >>I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to
> >>do with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog
> >>(smile.)  Your language in this message is diplomatic and considered
> >>and I think accomplishes more than some previous messages.  People get
> >>caught up in this and that and don't hear the message.
> >>
> >>I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price
> >>for things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to
> >>high, but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there
> >>yet.
> >>
> >>No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale
> >>replacement is slim.
> >>
> >>Dave
> >>
> >>At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
> >>>fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
> >>>way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a
> >>>crime in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one
> >>>can get. Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate
> >>>the eventual fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and
> >>>create something better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We
> >>>need to shut down SSI and social security.  those things punish the
> >>>blind for trying to work.  I said it last night and I'll say it
> >>>again.  IF a blind person tries to go to work, they don't make enough
> >>>money to live, and yet, too much money to get needed help.  How do I
> >>>know?  It happened to me.  So, with all due respect, don't tell me I
> >>>know not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that those who need help
> >>>should not get it; but, can we not even be honest with ourselves and
> >>>each other about the fact that our current set up may not be the best
> >>>way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too hard to do?  Is that
> >>>too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message and there's no
> >>>taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  If we can't
> >>>even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we come too?
> >>>Sincerely,
> >>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>
> >>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>
> >>>E-Mail:
> >>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>Skype:
> >>>barefootedray
> >>>
> >>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
> >>>sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
> >>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
> >>>notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
> >>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
> >>>believe we need to think about the cost of what we
> >>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
> >>>society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
> >>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
> >>>what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
> >>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
> >>>sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
> >>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
> >>>are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
> >>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
> >>>having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
> >>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
> >>>reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
> >>> > just a theory.
> >>> >
> >>> > Best regards,
> >>> >
> >>> > Steve Jacobson
> >>> >
> >>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
> >>> >> discussing liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner.
> >>> >> People should occasionally take a step back and examine their point
>of view.
> >>>Far too many
> >>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
> >>> reasons >> to
> >>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
> >>>disaster.  That's
> >>> >> how mistakes are made.
> >>> >
> >>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking
> >>>of calling
> >>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom
> >>> of >> speech.
> >>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
> >>>just because
> >>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
> >>>important is that it
> >>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
> >>>other in a
> >>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea
> >>> wins. >> Its
> >>> >> called the market place of ideas.
> >>> >
> >>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
> >>>ideas to their
> >>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
> >>>people to do.
> >>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
> >>>casting about
> >>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that
> >>>is a recipe
> >>> >> for wrongness.
> >>> >
> >>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
> >>>believe, you
> >>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a
> >>> better >> chess
> >>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost
> >>> almost all of >> my
> >>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to
> >>> >> get a realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are
> >>> my >> opponent's
> >>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
> >>>see? Is he
> >>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in
> >>> >> my opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It
> >>> >> was
> >>>like magic.
> >>> >
> >>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
> >>> importance >> of
> >>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there
> >>>is how few
> >>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy
> >>> chess >> players.
> >>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
> >>> >
> >>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
> >>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
> >>>opinions, take
> >>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working
> >>> or not. >> Do
> >>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
> >>>beliefs? Do I
> >>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
> >>>facts?  If more
> >>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
> >>>would be a
> >>> >> better place.
> >>> >
> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> >>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind
> >>> >> Conservatives
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Hi all,
> >>> >
> >>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
> >>> conservative >> and
> >>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have
> >>> been used >> to
> >>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
> >>> >
> >>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate
> >>> into anger >> and
> >>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen
> >>> before.  I and >> others
> >>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
> >>> >> our potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our
> >>> >> resolve
> >>>disintegrate
> >>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
> >>>leanings.  Knock off
> >>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
> >>>other names and
> >>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the
> >>> NFB it is >> to
> >>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all
> >>> blind >> Americans
> >>> >> should have.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Mike Hingson
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> >>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
> >>> >> Michael Hingson, President
> >>> >> (415) 827-4084
> >>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
> >>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> >>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On
> >>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> >>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
> >>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>> >
> >>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> Sincerely,
> >>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>> >
> >>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>> >
> >>> >> E-Mail:
> >>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>> >> Skype:
> >>> >> barefootedray
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally
> >>>you refrain
> >>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
> >>>correct term is
> >>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" >>>
> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> >>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> RyanO,
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long
> >>> overdue stand >>>> for
> >>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
> >>> perhaps >> some
> >>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that
> >>> >> perhaps the federation was leaning rather too far over to the
> >>> >> left.  But
> >>>why?  It's the
> >>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We
> >>> poor >> blind
> >>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
> >>>many of us,
> >>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more
> >>> of us >> don't
> >>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work.
> >>> When we >> do,
> >>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other
> >>> hand, we >> make
> >>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security
> >>> system. >> What,
> >>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
> >>> >> blind individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
> >>>government will
> >>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
> >>> >> that really means, you'll see that i
> >>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true
> >>> federationism.  It >>>> personally
> >>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by
> >>> >> the Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling
> >>> >> wanted to dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel
> >>> >> still
> >>> that my >> fellow
> >>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
> >>> >> hate political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
> >>>blind.  That turns my
> >>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
> >>>federation fail to
> >>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable
> >>> being in >> bed
> >>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was
> >>> sincerely >> hoping
> >>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital
> >>> talking >> book
> >>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
> >>>ride the back
> >>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
> >>> however, >> that
> >>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here,
> >>>I personally
> >>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
> >>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist,
> >>> >>>> an
> >>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about
> >>> is the >> fact
> >>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going
> >>> to have >> to
> >>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be
> >>> looking for >> that
> >>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're
> >>> being >> looked
> >>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
> >>>enough.  What I
> >>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after
> >>> >> accusation, but rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid
> >>> >> ourselves of the
> >>>entitlement
> >>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> E-Mail:
> >>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>> >>>> Skype:
> >>> >>>> barefootedray
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
> >>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Dave
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked
> >>> to reach >>>>> out
> >>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
> >>>to come speak
> >>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
> >>>issues. We
> >>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
> >>> >> our members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several
> >>> days of >> phone
> >>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
> >>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was
> >>> because, >> "Obama
> >>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
> >>>hurt. We tried
> >>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
> >>>didn't matter.
> >>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit
> >>> >> being a conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The
> >>> >> second
> >>>option was to
> >>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
>levels.
> >>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush
> >>> Fires. It >>>>> is
> >>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network
> >>> >> of communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
> >>> welcome >> on
> >>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In
> >>> the spirit >> of
> >>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
> >>>fosters a more
> >>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough,
> >>> I plan >>>>> to
> >>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
> >>> please >> Email
> >>> >> me at
> >>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> RyanO





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