[nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

David Andrews dandrews at visi.com
Sat Apr 24 03:52:49 UTC 2010


One person's trivia is another person's serious issue.  If the 
presence of that box adversely influences attitudes about blindness 
and blind people, which I think it does, then this is a serious issue.

Dave

At 01:11 PM 4/23/2010, you wrote:
>People are sniping at trivia.  It doesn't matter if there is a box on the
>tax form.  Lets talk about serious issues.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:52 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
>It is really annoying the way you keep assuming your opinions are facts.
>There's no evidence that the extra exemption causes harm.  That's nothing
>but speculation. And you want to move ahead to figuring ways to solve these
>problems that probably don't even exist.
>
>There are 2 facts we can agree on:
>1. There is a problem with SSI in that you lose your benefits if you get a
>job.
>2. Too many blind people are unemployed.
>
>Those are facts. That the extra exemption on a tax form contributes to the
>unemployment rate is not a fact.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 2:26 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
> > Well, I , for one, would not disagree with you Dave.  It does indeed do
> > harm.  Perhaps we should undertake a discussion then about the ways in
> > which we can become well off enough to loosen ourselves from the chains of
> > government dependency.  All right.  Let's use this then as a starting
> > point shall we?  Let's have some ideas then.
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >
> > Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >
> > e-mail:
> > rforetjr at comcast dot net
> > skype:
> > barefootedray
> >
> > On Apr 22, 2010, at 9:48 PM, David Andrews wrote:
> >
> >> We tell ourselves that we have added expenses -- but I am not sure this
> >> is true.  We have different expenses, readers, drivers, cabs, etc., but
> >> in general we don't have to buy cars and auto insurance.  They are quite
> >> expensive, so I think that for most people it is a wash.
> >>
> >> As to the extra exemption -- I take it too, to not take it won't make any
> >> difference in the system so there is no reason not to take it.  However,
> >> everybody who fills out a tax return sees that you get an extra break
> >> from the government, like the elderly.  Why -- because you need it, you
> >> can't do for yourself so you need government help.  Everybody sees that
> >> and I think it does us great damage, and contributes to our high
> >> unemployment rate.
> >>
> >> But we are not well enough off, and self aware enough, as a group, to
> >> reject that benefit.
> >>
> >> I suspect many people will disagree with me, and say it does no harm, but
> >> I don't believe that for one.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >> At 05:23 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
> >>> considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong
> >>> with the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to accept
> >>> it without shame or guilt.
> >>> Chuck
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Ray:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing to
> >>>> do with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  Your
> >>>> language in this message is diplomatic and considered and I think
> >>>> accomplishes more than some previous messages.  People get caught up in
> >>>> this and that and don't hear the message.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the price
> >>>> for things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is just to
> >>>> high, but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not there
> >>>> yet.
> >>>>
> >>>> No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale
> >>>> replacement is slim.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dave
> >>>>
> >>>> At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>> All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the intestsinal
> >>>>> fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check is not the best
> >>>>> way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even asking that is a
> >>>>> crime in the federation, mark me down as being about as guilty as one
> >>>>> can get. Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the
> >>>>> eventual fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create
> >>>>> something better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to
> >>>>> shut down SSI and social security.  those things punish the blind for
> >>>>> trying to work.  I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a
> >>>>> blind person tries to go to work, they don't make enough money to
> >>>>> live, and yet, too much money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It
> >>>>> happened to me.  So, with all due respect, don't tell me I know not of
> >>>>> what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that those who need help should not
> >>>>> get it; but, can we not even be honest with ourselves and each other
> >>>>> about the fact that our
> >  current set up may not be the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS
> > that too hard to do?  Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this
> > message and there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too
> > late.  If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we
> > come too?
> >>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> E-Mail:
> >>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>>> Skype:
> >>>>> barefootedray
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
> >>>>> sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
> >>>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
> >>>>> notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
> >>>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
> >>>>> believe we need to think about the cost of what we
> >>>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
> >>>>> society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
> >>>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
> >>>>> what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
> >>>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
> >>>>> sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
> >>>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
> >>>>> are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
> >>>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us as
> >>>>> having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
> >>>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
> >>>>> reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life is
> >>>>> > just a theory.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Best regards,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Steve Jacobson
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in
> >>>>> >> discussing
> >>>>> >> liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
> >>>>> >> occasionally take a step back and examine their point of view.
> >>>>> Far too many
> >>>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
> >>>>> >> reasons >> to
> >>>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
> >>>>> disaster.  That's
> >>>>> >> how mistakes are made.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm thinking
> >>>>> of calling
> >>>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom of
> >>>>> >>  >> speech.
> >>>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
> >>>>> just because
> >>>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
> >>>>> important is that it
> >>>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against each
> >>>>> other in a
> >>>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea wins.
> >>>>> >>  >> Its
> >>>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
> >>>>> ideas to their
> >>>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
> >>>>> people to do.
> >>>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
> >>>>> casting about
> >>>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And that
> >>>>> is a recipe
> >>>>> >> for wrongness.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
> >>>>> believe, you
> >>>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a better
> >>>>> >>  >> chess
> >>>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost almost all
> >>>>> >> of >> my
> >>>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying to get
> >>>>> >> a
> >>>>> >> realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What are my >>
> >>>>> >> opponent's
> >>>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might not
> >>>>> see? Is he
> >>>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
> >>>>> >> opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. It was
> >>>>> like magic.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
> >>>>> >> importance >> of
> >>>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight there
> >>>>> is how few
> >>>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy chess >>
> >>>>> >> players.
> >>>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
> >>>>> >> everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your political
> >>>>> opinions, take
> >>>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working or
> >>>>> >> not. >> Do
> >>>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
> >>>>> beliefs? Do I
> >>>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
> >>>>> facts?  If more
> >>>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the world
> >>>>> would be a
> >>>>> >> better place.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> >>>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Hi all,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
> >>>>> >> conservative >> and
> >>>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have been
> >>>>> >> used >> to
> >>>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate into
> >>>>> >> anger >> and
> >>>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen before.  I and
> >>>>> >>  >> others
> >>>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to see
> >>>>> >> our
> >>>>> >> potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our resolve
> >>>>> disintegrate
> >>>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
> >>>>> leanings.  Knock off
> >>>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
> >>>>> other names and
> >>>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the NFB it
> >>>>> >> is >> to
> >>>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all blind >>
> >>>>> >> Americans
> >>>>> >> should have.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Mike Hingson
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> >>>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
> >>>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
> >>>>> >> (415) 827-4084
> >>>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
> >>>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> >>>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> >> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On
> >>>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> >>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
> >>>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Sincerely,
> >>>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> E-Mail:
> >>>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>>> >> Skype:
> >>>>> >> barefootedray
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this rationally
> >>>>> you refrain
> >>>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
> >>>>> correct term is
> >>>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" >>>
> >>>>> >>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> >>>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
> >>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>
> >>>>> >>>> RyanO,
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long overdue
> >>>>> >>>> stand >>>> for
> >>>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
> >>>>> >> perhaps >> some
> >>>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that perhaps
> >>>>> >> the
> >>>>> >> federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.  But
> >>>>> why?  It's the
> >>>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We poor
> >>>>> >>  >> blind
> >>>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that for
> >>>>> many of us,
> >>>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more of
> >>>>> >> us >> don't
> >>>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work. When
> >>>>> >> we >> do,
> >>>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other hand,
> >>>>> >> we >> make
> >>>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security system. >>
> >>>>> >> What,
> >>>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too many
> >>>>> >> blind
> >>>>> >> individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think that
> >>>>> government will
> >>>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment what
> >>>>> >> that
> >>>>> >> really means, you'll see that i
> >>>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true federationism.  It >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> personally
> >>>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
> >>>>> >> Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
> >>>>> >> dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and feel still that my
> >>>>> >>  >> fellow
> >>>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem to
> >>>>> >> hate
> >>>>> >> political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
> >>>>> blind.  That turns my
> >>>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
> >>>>> federation fail to
> >>>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable being
> >>>>> >> in >> bed
> >>>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was sincerely
> >>>>> >>  >> hoping
> >>>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital talking
> >>>>> >>  >> book
> >>>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
> >>>>> ride the back
> >>>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
> >>>>> >> however, >> that
> >>>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood here,
> >>>>> I personally
> >>>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
> >>>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist,
> >>>>> >>>> an
> >>>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about is
> >>>>> >> the >> fact
> >>>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going to
> >>>>> >> have >> to
> >>>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be looking for
> >>>>> >>  >> that
> >>>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're being
> >>>>> >>  >> looked
> >>>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
> >>>>> enough.  What I
> >>>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after accusation,
> >>>>> >> but
> >>>>> >> rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid ourselves of the
> >>>>> entitlement
> >>>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> E-Mail:
> >>>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>>> >>>> Skype:
> >>>>> >>>> barefootedray
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
> >>>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
> >>>>> >>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> Dave
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked to
> >>>>> >>>>> reach >>>>> out
> >>>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
> >>>>> to come speak
> >>>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of disability
> >>>>> issues. We
> >>>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one of
> >>>>> >> our
> >>>>> >> members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After several days of
> >>>>> >>  >> phone
> >>>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
> >>>>> >> representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was because,
> >>>>> >>  >> "Obama
> >>>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
> >>>>> hurt. We tried
> >>>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
> >>>>> didn't matter.
> >>>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being
> >>>>> >> a
> >>>>> >> conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The second
> >>>>> option was to
> >>>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all
> >>>>> >> levels.
> >>>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush Fires.
> >>>>> >>>>> It >>>>> is
> >>>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
> >>>>> >> communication and information. Let me stress that everyone is
> >>>>> >> welcome >> on
> >>>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In the
> >>>>> >> spirit >> of
> >>>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
> >>>>> fosters a more
> >>>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough, I
> >>>>> >>>>> plan >>>>> to
> >>>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
> >>>>> >> please >> Email
> >>>>> >> me at
> >>>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>>
> >>>>> >>>>> RyanO





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