[nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

Brian Miller brian-r-miller at uiowa.edu
Sat Apr 24 12:58:13 UTC 2010


It also requires us to have taxes to minimize through the deduction -- too
many blind people don't have enough income to even take advantage of this
benefit.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of David Andrews
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:49 PM
To: qubit; NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption

We are singled out because A. we have been better organized for longer so
get better benefits then some disability groups, and b.  people think we are
worse off and need the extra help.  Personally I think that ultimately it
hurts us more than the small tax benefit.

Dave

At 01:09 PM 4/23/2010, you wrote:
>There's no way of checking short of a survey of all employers.  But my 
>point is if they are going to make a checkbox for blind citizens, why 
>not put a box for deafness? or any other disability or medical problem?
>Why single out blind people? That I think would put a question in 
>people's minds.
>--le
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 9:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
>Wow, it is really a stretch to suggest that that little check box 
>contributes to the unemployment rate. I don't think its a significant 
>issue either way. What would you say? If the unemployment rate is 70%, 
>would it be 50% without that check box? I doubt that. I doubt it 
>contributes one tenth of one percent to the unemployment rate. I doubt 
>you could measure the difference that check box makes.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 9:48 PM
>Subject: [nfb-talk] Extra Tax Exemption
>
>
> > We tell ourselves that we have added expenses -- but I am not sure 
> > this is true.  We have different expenses, readers, drivers, cabs, 
> > etc., but in general we don't have to buy cars and auto insurance.  
> > They are quite expensive, so I think that for most people it is a wash.
> >
> > As to the extra exemption -- I take it too, to not take it won't 
> > make any difference in the system so there is no reason not to take 
> > it.  However, everybody who fills out a tax return sees that you get 
> > an extra break from the government, like the elderly.  Why -- 
> > because you need it, you can't do for yourself so you need 
> > government help.  Everybody sees that and I think it does us great 
> > damage, and contributes to our high unemployment rate.
> >
> > But we are not well enough off, and self aware enough, as a group, 
> > to reject that benefit.
> >
> > I suspect many people will disagree with me, and say it does no 
> > harm, but I don't believe that for one.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > At 05:23 PM 4/22/2010, you wrote:
> >>considering the added expenses that blind people incur what is wrong 
> >>with the extra tax exemption? I for one will gladly continue to 
> >>accept it without shame or guilt.
> >>Chuck
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" 
> >><dandrews at visi.com>
> >>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:19 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>
> >>
> >>>Ray:
> >>>
> >>>I think you ask some good questions -- questions that have nothing 
> >>>to do with being a liberal or a conservative, or a dog (smile.)  
> >>>Your language in this message is diplomatic and considered and I 
> >>>think accomplishes more than some previous messages.  People get 
> >>>caught up in this and that and don't hear the message.
> >>>
> >>>I think that as a community we will ultimately decide that the 
> >>>price for things like the extra tax exemption, SSI, SSDI, etc., is 
> >>>just to high, but with a 70 percent unemployment rate, we are just not
there yet.
> >>>
> >>>No, this system isn't working, but the chance of a wholesale 
> >>>replacement is slim.
> >>>
> >>>Dave
> >>>
> >>>At 11:14 PM 4/20/2010, you wrote:
> >>>>All I'm asking now is this.  do we blind people have the 
> >>>>intestsinal fortitude to frankly face the fact that the SSI check 
> >>>>is not the best way for us to get ahead in this society?  If even 
> >>>>asking that is a crime in the federation, mark me down as being about
as guilty as one can get.
> >>>>Sometimes, the truth hurts, and that fact does not negate the 
> >>>>eventual fact that we're going to have to shut down SSI and create 
> >>>>something better.  Yes, I'll again speak frankly here.  We need to 
> >>>>shut down SSI and social security.  those things punish the blind for
trying to work.
> >>>>I said it last night and I'll say it again.  IF a blind person 
> >>>>tries to go to work, they don't make enough money to live, and 
> >>>>yet, too much money to get needed help.  How do I know?  It 
> >>>>happened to me.  So, with all due respect, don't tell me I know 
> >>>>not of what I speak!!!  I'm not saying that those who need help 
> >>>>should not get it; but, can we not even be honest with ourselves 
> >>>>and each other about the fact that our current set up may not be 
> >>>>the best way to cary us in to the future?  IS that too hard to do?  
> >>>>Is that too much to ask?  I said what I said in this message and 
> >>>>there's no taking it back.  Even if I wanted to, it's too late.  
> >>>>If we can't even be honest with ourselves about this, what have we
come too?
> >>>>Sincerely,
> >>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>>E-Mail:
> >>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>>Skype:
> >>>>barefootedray
> >>>>
> >>>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a lot of
> >>>>sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
> >>>> > Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into this
> >>>>notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of society to
> >>>> > figure out what we need as opposed to what we want.  I further
> >>>>believe we need to think about the cost of what we
> >>>> > might request society and what the benefits are to us and to
> >>>>society.  These seem like reasonable questions that should
> >>>> > not be seen as conservative or liberal.  Still, if this is even
> >>>>what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to believe that our
> >>>> > overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is related to a
> >>>>sense of entitlement.  As we make progress, we do need
> >>>> > to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various types
> >>>>are no longer needed.   However, we have some pretty
> >>>> > large obstacles to overcome before we get there.  Labeling us 
> >>>> > as
> >>>>having a sense of entitlement that overshadows the
> >>>> > other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
> >>>>reality.  To extreme conservatives and to extreme liberals, life 
> >>>>is
> >>>> > just a theory.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Best regards,
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Steve Jacobson
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Its almost impossible to find anyone actually interested in 
> >>>> >> discussing liberal vs conservative issues in a rational 
> >>>> >> manner. People should occasionally take a step back and 
> >>>> >> examine their point of view.
> >>>>Far too many
> >>>> >> people make up their minds and then start casting around for
> >>>> reasons >> to
> >>>> >> believe what they've already decided.  That's a recipe for
> >>>>disaster.  That's
> >>>> >> how mistakes are made.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm 
> >>>> >> thinking
> >>>>of calling
> >>>> >> it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in freedom
> >>>> of >> speech.
> >>>> >> And most people even understand why its so important. Its not
> >>>>just because
> >>>> >> we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
> >>>>important is that it
> >>>> >> allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete against 
> >>>> >> each
> >>>>other in a
> >>>> >> society with free speech and most of the time, the best idea
> >>>> wins. >> Its
> >>>> >> called the market place of ideas.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> But very few people apply the concept of the market place of
> >>>>ideas to their
> >>>> >> own opinions.  Its just not even something that occurs to most
> >>>>people to do.
> >>>> >> Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then start
> >>>>casting about
> >>>> >> for information to support what they already believe.  And 
> >>>> >> that
> >>>>is a recipe
> >>>> >> for wrongness.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> If you start occasionally sitting back and examining what you
> >>>>believe, you
> >>>> >> will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made me a
> >>>> better >> chess
> >>>> >> player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and lost
> >>>> almost all of >> my
> >>>> >> matches until I started sitting back occasionally and trying 
> >>>> >> to get a realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What 
> >>>> >> are
> >>>> my >> opponent's
> >>>> >> strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I might 
> >>>> >> not
> >>>>see? Is he
> >>>> >> missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on 
> >>>> >> in my opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every match. 
> >>>> >> It was
> >>>>like magic.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> The real message in the chess tournament story is not the
> >>>> importance >> of
> >>>> >> trying to look into your opponents mind. The real insight 
> >>>> >> there
> >>>>is how few
> >>>> >> people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are crummy
> >>>> chess >> players.
> >>>> >> Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use 
> >>>> >> it everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your 
> >>>> >> political
> >>>>opinions, take
> >>>> >> a step back occasionally and consider whether they're working
> >>>> or not. >> Do
> >>>> >> they actually make sense? Does history support or dispute my
> >>>>beliefs? Do I
> >>>> >> believe what I believe because I want to or because of the
> >>>>facts?  If more
> >>>> >> people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and the 
> >>>> >> world
> >>>>would be a
> >>>> >> better place.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> >> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> >>>> >> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind 
> >>>> >> Conservatives
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Hi all,
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
> >>>> conservative >> and
> >>>> >> "right wing" are words.  The fact is that these words have
> >>>> been used >> to
> >>>> >> inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> In our country today we are seeing a war of words escalate
> >>>> into anger >> and
> >>>> >> downright polarization on a scale we have never seen
> >>>> before.  I and >> others
> >>>> >> survived the attack at the World Trade Center and Pentagon to 
> >>>> >> see our potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our 
> >>>> >> resolve
> >>>>disintegrate
> >>>> >> along party lines.  Folks, it matters not our political
> >>>>leanings.  Knock off
> >>>> >> the words and find ways to come together.  Stop calling each
> >>>>other names and
> >>>> >> recognize that we all have a job to do.  In the case of the
> >>>> NFB it is >> to
> >>>> >> promote the security, equality, and opportunity which all
> >>>> blind >> Americans
> >>>> >> should have.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Mike Hingson
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> >>>> >> "Speaking with Vision"
> >>>> >> Michael Hingson, President
> >>>> >> (415) 827-4084
> >>>> >> info at michaelhingson.com
> >>>> >> www.michaelhingson.com
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> >>>> >> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> >> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> >>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On
> >>>> >> Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
> >>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
> >>>> >> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Just being honest.  That's all.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Sincerely,
> >>>> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> E-Mail:
> >>>> >> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>> >> Skype:
> >>>> >> barefootedray
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >>> I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this 
> >>>> >>> rationally
> >>>>you refrain
> >>>> >> from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist". The
> >>>>correct term is
> >>>> >> "liberal" or "progressive".
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr" >>>
> >>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> >>>> >>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
> >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>> RyanO,
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> I must publicly applaud you for taking this very long
> >>>> overdue stand >>>> for
> >>>> >> us blind conservatives.  Let me be completely frank here, at
> >>>> perhaps >> some
> >>>> >> risk to myself.  For much too long now, I have feared that 
> >>>> >> perhaps the federation was leaning rather too far over to the 
> >>>> >> left.  But
> >>>>why?  It's the
> >>>> >> entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it bluntly.  We
> >>>> poor >> blind
> >>>> >> think we can't live without it.  But, the sad truth is, that 
> >>>> >> for
> >>>>many of us,
> >>>> >> that think is a physical reality.  That is the reason why more
> >>>> of us >> don't
> >>>> >> have jobs.  We get punished for trying to start to go to work.
> >>>> When we >> do,
> >>>> >> we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the other
> >>>> hand, we >> make
> >>>> >> too much to receive any help from the socialist security
> >>>> system. >> What,
> >>>> >> there fore, is the sad result?  The sad result is that too 
> >>>> >> many blind individuals adopt leftist socialism because they 
> >>>> >> think that
> >>>>government will
> >>>> >> "look after us".  IF you just stop and consider for a moment 
> >>>> >> what that really means, you'll see that i
> >>>> >>>> t goes directly against the grain of true
> >>>> federationism.  It >>>> personally
> >>>> >> hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by 
> >>>> >> the Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling 
> >>>> >> wanted to dismantle blind rehab.  Frankly, I felt then and 
> >>>> >> feel still
> >>>> that my >> fellow
> >>>> >> conservatives were completely wrong on that score.  They seem 
> >>>> >> to hate political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
> >>>>blind.  That turns my
> >>>> >> stomach!!!!  It sure doesn't help when any leaders of the
> >>>>federation fail to
> >>>> >> reach out to conservatives because they feel more comfortable
> >>>> being in >> bed
> >>>> >> with the socialist left.  To speak quite candidly, I was
> >>>> sincerely >> hoping
> >>>> >> that our fight to get money to convert over to the digital
> >>>> talking >> book
> >>>> >> program would have taught the lesson that we cannot afford to
> >>>>ride the back
> >>>> >> of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It seems,
> >>>> however, >> that
> >>>> >> this is not so.  Now look, just so I am not misunderstood 
> >>>> >> here,
> >>>>I personally
> >>>> >> couldn't care whether any individu
> >>>> >>>> al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a 
> >>>> >>>> socialist, an
> >>>> >> extreme right wing person or what ever.  What I do care about
> >>>> is the >> fact
> >>>> >> that so long as we do not face up to the fact that we're going
> >>>> to have >> to
> >>>> >> figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be
> >>>> looking for >> that
> >>>> >> check every month which is supposed to assure us that we're
> >>>> being >> looked
> >>>> >> after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going to be
> >>>>enough.  What I
> >>>> >> look forward to in this debate is not accusation after 
> >>>> >> accusation, but rather, healthy discussion about how we can 
> >>>> >> rid ourselves of the
> >>>>entitlement
> >>>> >> mentality and move in to something much better for us.
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> E-Mail:
> >>>> >>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
> >>>> >>>> Skype:
> >>>> >>>> barefootedray
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
> >>>> >> <dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
> >>>> >>>>
> >>>> >>>>> I have been asked to circulate the following:
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> Dave
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I were asked
> >>>> to reach >>>>> out
> >>>> >> to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a representative
> >>>>to come speak
> >>>> >> at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of 
> >>>> >> disability
> >>>>issues. We
> >>>> >> already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person of one 
> >>>> >> of our members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After 
> >>>> >> several
> >>>> days of >> phone
> >>>> >> tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending 
> >>>> >> a representative to speak to us. The reason I was given was
> >>>> because, >> "Obama
> >>>> >> was just too far ahead on disability issues."
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> I and my fellow conservative blind friends were angry and
> >>>>hurt. We tried
> >>>> >> to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told that we
> >>>>didn't matter.
> >>>> >> To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit 
> >>>> >> being a conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The 
> >>>> >> second
> >>>>option was to
> >>>> >> get more actively involved and to make our voices heard on all 
> >>>> >> levels.
> >>>> >> Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> To that end, I have created a mailing list called, Brush
> >>>> Fires. It >>>>> is
> >>>> >> primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a 
> >>>> >> network of communication and information. Let me stress that 
> >>>> >> everyone is
> >>>> welcome >> on
> >>>> >> this list, no matter what their political stripe may be. In
> >>>> the spirit >> of
> >>>> >> the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and discussion
> >>>>fosters a more
> >>>> >> vibrant society for all of its members.
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> Right now, the list is announce only. If we get big enough,
> >>>> I plan >>>>> to
> >>>> >> turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more information,
> >>>> please >> Email
> >>>> >> me at
> >>>> >>>>> ryano218 at comcast.net
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> Thank you for your time and attention.
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>>
> >>>> >>>>> RyanO


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