[nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
T. Joseph Carter
carter.tjoseph at gmail.com
Tue Apr 27 21:52:52 UTC 2010
I would contribute to such a fund, anything that I could. But then,
I know where this Social Security thing is going, and a lot of blind
people are going to be in a world of hurt when it gets there, as I
have said elsewhere.
(So wish me success, I'm hunting for new employment!)
Joseph
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:15:15PM -0700, Sarah Baughn wrote:
>As a matter of fact, I know Ray well enough to know that if he had
>enough financial resources, he would contribute to this fund. Now
>you're making assumptions about a person you don't even know,
>assumptions without any basis in fact.
>Sarah
>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this
>mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall remove, and
>nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim"
><jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 11:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>
>
>>Ray suggested that employed blind people start a fund to get
>>unemployed blind people off SSI. But I think that if Ray had to
>>contribute to this fund of his, he'd look at it a little
>>differently. I don't think he'd think it was such a good idea if he
>>had to put his own money into it.
>>
>>In my opinion, its irresponsible to volunteer someone else to solve
>>a problem and not in keeping with the conservative spirit.
>>Besides, Ray has time, doesn't he? There's more to organizing a
>>program to get people off SSI than contributing money. He could
>>contribute his time.
>>
>>There are plenty of NGOs out there dedicated to helping blind
>>people find and keep jobs that could use some volunteer time. Heck,
>>I run one myself. When I saw the need for an association of blind
>>technologists, I didn't say someone should start something like
>>that. No, I went out and started it.
>>
>>PS: I haven't attacked anybody. You conservatives all seem to have
>>these firmly held opinions and seem to have no problem expressing
>>them in the most blunt terms. But if anybody should challenge those
>>opinions, you think its an attack. Well, its not.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Baughn"
>><sarahb006 at comcast.net>
>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 10:18 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>
>>
>>>Because right now, speaking as his girlfriend, he doesn't have
>>>the resources. Sorry babe, but these attacks on you are irking
>>>me.
>>>Sarah
>>>If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
>>>this mountain: "Remove hence to yonder place.", and it shall
>>>remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John G. Heim"
>>><jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:57 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>
>>>
>>>>First of all, I didn't misrepresent anything. I responded to
>>>>what you said. If you meant that SSI should be eliminated only
>>>>after other programs were in place, you should have said that.
>>>>Don't blame me for your own lack of clarity.
>>>>
>>>>As far as your plan goes, I say go ahead. Get started. Why
>>>>don't you, Ray Ford, get someone off SSI by paying them to work
>>>>for you? Or maybe you could set them up in a business of their
>>>>own. What's stopping you?
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>><rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 10:14 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In an effort to meet you half way, I want to reiterate
>>>>>something. Yes, I said we need to eliminate SSI and social
>>>>>security. But, and this is very important, not before we
>>>>>have other systems in place. Let me repeat myself. Just
>>>>>because I said that does not mean that I believe that we
>>>>>should not help those who truly need it. This has been how
>>>>>we are misrepresented in the press ETC. Okay. I'll take one
>>>>>thing you said and actually agree with you; rare but true.
>>>>>YOu said, "Let's see the conservatives come up with some
>>>>>ideas". Fair enough. My own idea would be the establishment
>>>>>of a finatial pool from which money could be drawn to help
>>>>>the truly needy. Where would this money come from? The
>>>>>blind who are not on SSI or social security would contribute
>>>>>to this fund; which, would perhaps be held in trust by the
>>>>>NFB. This would take some time; but, as funds accumulated,
>>>>>you would begin to be able to slowly draw off blind people
>>>>>from SSI by providing them jobs through direct
>>>>> networking. It would have to start with one blind person
>>>>>who is no longer on SSI or social security willing to jump
>>>>>start the process. From there, it would move to the first
>>>>>person being helped. That person would then be able, through
>>>>>the efforts of the first, to obtain a secure position and
>>>>>then, when he himself is secure, help the third. Okay, it's
>>>>>not perfect; but, it's a start isn't it? Seems our only
>>>>>other choice is a most unpleasant one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>e-mail:
>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>skype:
>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:46 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, it would probably be worthwhile to discuss whether
>>>>>>SSI and SSDI represent needs or wants just to get that out
>>>>>>of the way. But I don't see how anyone could say these
>>>>>>programs are not needed. I'd like to see conservatives come
>>>>>>up with some alternatives. Would they rather have blind
>>>>>>people begging in the streets? It seems to me that
>>>>>>conservatives want to roll the clock back to the bad old
>>>>>>days when blind people sold pencils on the street corner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
>>>>>><steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:50 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Stepping back and examining our points of view makes a
>>>>>>>lot of sense to me and it is something I try to do often.
>>>>>>>Actually, one element of Ray's comments that fits into
>>>>>>>this notion is that we do need to look at what we ask of
>>>>>>>society to
>>>>>>>figure out what we need as opposed to what we want. I
>>>>>>>further believe we need to think about the cost of what
>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>might request society and what the benefits are to us and
>>>>>>>to society. These seem like reasonable questions that
>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>not be seen as conservative or liberal. Still, if this
>>>>>>>is even what Ray is saying, I find it very hard to
>>>>>>>believe that our
>>>>>>>overall status, the 70% unemployed for example, is
>>>>>>>related to a sense of entitlement. As we make progress,
>>>>>>>we do need
>>>>>>>to be prepared to consider that some benefits of various
>>>>>>>types are no longer needed. However, we have some
>>>>>>>pretty
>>>>>>>large obstacles to overcome before we get there.
>>>>>>>Labeling us as having a sense of entitlement that
>>>>>>>overshadows the
>>>>>>>other barriers we encounter really does not recognize
>>>>>>>reality. To extreme conservatives and to extreme
>>>>>>>liberals, life is
>>>>>>>just a theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:04:22 -0500, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Its almost impossible to find anyone actually
>>>>>>>>interested in discussing
>>>>>>>>liberal vs conservative issues in a rational manner. People should
>>>>>>>>occasionally take a step back and examine their point
>>>>>>>>of view. Far too many
>>>>>>>>people make up their minds and then start casting
>>>>>>>>around for reasons to
>>>>>>>>believe what they've already decided. That's a recipe
>>>>>>>>for disaster. That's
>>>>>>>>how mistakes are made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I am actually planning to write a book about this. I'm
>>>>>>>>thinking of calling
>>>>>>>>it "Recipe For Wrongness". Almost everyone believes in
>>>>>>>>freedom of speech.
>>>>>>>>And most people even understand why its so important.
>>>>>>>>Its not just because
>>>>>>>>we all enjoy it. The reason why freedom of speech is so
>>>>>>>>important is that it
>>>>>>>>allows the best ideas to win out. Ideas can compete
>>>>>>>>against each other in a
>>>>>>>>society with free speech and most of the time, the best
>>>>>>>>idea wins. Its
>>>>>>>>called the market place of ideas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But very few people apply the concept of the market
>>>>>>>>place of ideas to their
>>>>>>>>own opinions. Its just not even something that occurs
>>>>>>>>to most people to do.
>>>>>>>>Most people make up their minds ahead of time and then
>>>>>>>>start casting about
>>>>>>>>for information to support what they already believe.
>>>>>>>>And that is a recipe
>>>>>>>>for wrongness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If you start occasionally sitting back and examining
>>>>>>>>what you believe, you
>>>>>>>>will find its an incredibly valuable tool. It even made
>>>>>>>>me a better chess
>>>>>>>>player. I was in a round-robin chess tournament and
>>>>>>>>lost almost all of my
>>>>>>>>matches until I started sitting back occasionally and
>>>>>>>>trying to get a
>>>>>>>>realistic overview of the board and my opponent. What
>>>>>>>>are my opponent's
>>>>>>>>strengths and weaknesses?Does he see any advantages I
>>>>>>>>might not see? Is he
>>>>>>>>missing any vulnerabilities he currently has? What's going on in my
>>>>>>>>opponent's head? From then on, I won almost every
>>>>>>>>match. It was like magic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The real message in the chess tournament story is not
>>>>>>>>the importance of
>>>>>>>>trying to look into your opponents mind. The real
>>>>>>>>insight there is how few
>>>>>>>>people do it. Its not just that a lot of people are
>>>>>>>>crummy chess players.
>>>>>>>>Its that it would be so easy to be so much better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Once you start thinking this way, you see opportunities to use it
>>>>>>>>everywhere. Instead of just bulling ahead with your
>>>>>>>>political opinions, take
>>>>>>>>a step back occasionally and consider whether they're
>>>>>>>>working or not. Do
>>>>>>>>they actually make sense? Does history support or
>>>>>>>>dispute my beliefs? Do I
>>>>>>>>believe what I believe because I want to or because of
>>>>>>>>the facts? If more
>>>>>>>>people did this, they'd be right a lot more often and
>>>>>>>>the world would be a
>>>>>>>>better place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hingson"
>>>>>>>><info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>>>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:45 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Leftist, liberal, socialist, and progressive as well as
>>>>>>>>conservative and
>>>>>>>>"right wing" are words. The fact is that these words
>>>>>>>>have been used to
>>>>>>>>inflame and are not necessarily true or fair.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In our country today we are seeing a war of words
>>>>>>>>escalate into anger and
>>>>>>>>downright polarization on a scale we have never seen
>>>>>>>>before. I and others
>>>>>>>>survived the attack at the World Trade Center and
>>>>>>>>Pentagon to see our
>>>>>>>>potential to grow stronger be negated and even see our
>>>>>>>>resolve disintegrate
>>>>>>>>along party lines. Folks, it matters not our political
>>>>>>>>leanings. Knock off
>>>>>>>>the words and find ways to come together. Stop calling
>>>>>>>>each other names and
>>>>>>>>recognize that we all have a job to do. In the case of
>>>>>>>>the NFB it is to
>>>>>>>>promote the security, equality, and opportunity which
>>>>>>>>all blind Americans
>>>>>>>>should have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Mike Hingson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>>>>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>>>>>>>Michael Hingson, President
>>>>>>>>(415) 827-4084
>>>>>>>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>>>www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>>>>>>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>Behalf Of Ray Foret jr
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 AM
>>>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Just being honest. That's all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:39 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'd suggest that if you really want to discuss this
>>>>>>>>>rationally you refrain
>>>>>>>>from using perjoritives like "leftist" and "socialist".
>>>>>>>>The correct term is
>>>>>>>>"liberal" or "progressive".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret jr"
>>>>>>>>><rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] New List for Blind Conservatives
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>RyanO,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I must publicly applaud you for taking this very
>>>>>>>>>>long overdue stand for
>>>>>>>>us blind conservatives. Let me be completely frank
>>>>>>>>here, at perhaps some
>>>>>>>>risk to myself. For much too long now, I have feared
>>>>>>>>that perhaps the
>>>>>>>>federation was leaning rather too far over to the left.
>>>>>>>>But why? It's the
>>>>>>>>entitlement mentality of the SSI check; to put it
>>>>>>>>bluntly. We poor blind
>>>>>>>>think we can't live without it. But, the sad truth is,
>>>>>>>>that for many of us,
>>>>>>>>that think is a physical reality. That is the reason
>>>>>>>>why more of us don't
>>>>>>>>have jobs. We get punished for trying to start to go
>>>>>>>>to work. When we do,
>>>>>>>>we don't make enough money to live by; and yet, on the
>>>>>>>>other hand, we make
>>>>>>>>too much to receive any help from the socialist
>>>>>>>>security system. What,
>>>>>>>>there fore, is the sad result? The sad result is that
>>>>>>>>too many blind
>>>>>>>>individuals adopt leftist socialism because they think
>>>>>>>>that government will
>>>>>>>>"look after us". IF you just stop and consider for a
>>>>>>>>moment what that
>>>>>>>>really means, you'll see that i
>>>>>>>>>>t goes directly against the grain of true
>>>>>>>>>>federationism. It personally
>>>>>>>>hurt me when Joanne Wilson and the rest of us were deceived by the
>>>>>>>>Republican party in or about 2005 when Secretary Spelling wanted to
>>>>>>>>dismantle blind rehab. Frankly, I felt then and feel
>>>>>>>>still that my fellow
>>>>>>>>conservatives were completely wrong on that score.
>>>>>>>>They seem to hate
>>>>>>>>political correctness; that is, until it comes to the
>>>>>>>>blind. That turns my
>>>>>>>>stomach!!!! It sure doesn't help when any leaders of
>>>>>>>>the federation fail to
>>>>>>>>reach out to conservatives because they feel more
>>>>>>>>comfortable being in bed
>>>>>>>>with the socialist left. To speak quite candidly, I
>>>>>>>>was sincerely hoping
>>>>>>>>that our fight to get money to convert over to the
>>>>>>>>digital talking book
>>>>>>>>program would have taught the lesson that we cannot
>>>>>>>>afford to ride the back
>>>>>>>>of the tiger for fear of ending up devoured by it. It
>>>>>>>>seems, however, that
>>>>>>>>this is not so. Now look, just so I am not
>>>>>>>>misunderstood here, I personally
>>>>>>>>couldn't care whether any individu
>>>>>>>>>>al in the federation or on this list is a leftist, a socialist, an
>>>>>>>>extreme right wing person or what ever. What I do care
>>>>>>>>about is the fact
>>>>>>>>that so long as we do not face up to the fact that
>>>>>>>>we're going to have to
>>>>>>>>figure out a better way to live for ourselves, we'll be
>>>>>>>>looking for that
>>>>>>>>check every month which is supposed to assure us that
>>>>>>>>we're being looked
>>>>>>>>after. I'm just wondering when enough is finally going
>>>>>>>>to be enough. What I
>>>>>>>>look forward to in this debate is not accusation after
>>>>>>>>accusation, but
>>>>>>>>rather, healthy discussion about how we can rid
>>>>>>>>ourselves of the entitlement
>>>>>>>>mentality and move in to something much better for us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Now a proud Mac user!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>>Skype:
>>>>>>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:32 PM, RyanO (by way of David Andrews
>>>>>>>><dandrews at visi.com>) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Dave
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>In October, 2008, a fellow Federationist and I
>>>>>>>>>>>were asked to reach out
>>>>>>>>to the McCain campaign in hopes of persuading a
>>>>>>>>representative to come speak
>>>>>>>>at our monthly Denver chapter meeting on the topic of
>>>>>>>>disability issues. We
>>>>>>>>already had a rep from the Obama campaign in the person
>>>>>>>>of one of our
>>>>>>>>members, who was an official Obama surrogate. After
>>>>>>>>several days of phone
>>>>>>>>tag, I was informed that the McCain camp would not be sending a
>>>>>>>>representative to speak to us. The reason I was given
>>>>>>>>was because, "Obama
>>>>>>>>was just too far ahead on disability issues."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I and my fellow conservative blind friends were
>>>>>>>>>>>angry and hurt. We tried
>>>>>>>>to give both sides equal time and felt we'd been told
>>>>>>>>that we didn't matter.
>>>>>>>>To that end, I felt I had two options. The first was to quit being a
>>>>>>>>conservative and jump ship over to the other side. The
>>>>>>>>second option was to
>>>>>>>>get more actively involved and to make our voices heard
>>>>>>>>on all levels.
>>>>>>>>Anyone who knows me knows that option one was not an option.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>To that end, I have created a mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>called, Brush Fires. It is
>>>>>>>>primarily for blind conservatives so that we may form a network of
>>>>>>>>communication and information. Let me stress that
>>>>>>>>everyone is welcome on
>>>>>>>>this list, no matter what their political stripe may
>>>>>>>>be. In the spirit of
>>>>>>>>the Federation, I believe that healthy debate and
>>>>>>>>discussion fosters a more
>>>>>>>>vibrant society for all of its members.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Right now, the list is announce only. If we get
>>>>>>>>>>>big enough, I plan to
>>>>>>>>turn it into a discussion mailing list. For more
>>>>>>>>information, please Email
>>>>>>>>me at
>>>>>>>>>>>ryano218 at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Thank you for your time and attention.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>RyanO
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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