[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
freethaught at gmail.com
Sun Aug 8 02:39:53 UTC 2010
Hi all,
I am late to the philosophy conversation, but I do have thoughts about Mike
Freeman's questions on blindness expectations.
Mike asked
(1) what level of competence should members of society routinely assume
blind people have (I suspect we would receive different answers from
different organizations of the blind)?
My thoughts:
Society aught to expect blind people to do that which the blind demonstrate
themselves capable of doing. My abilities are not the same as Mike's, or
John's. That's why John swims, and Mike works in technology.
Society, employers, teachers, bus drivers, bar tenders, and the like should
be expected not to stop blind people from doing what they want to do. What a
blind person can do depends on the individual.
Public perception then has little to do with differing philosophies held by
organizations, and much to do with individual ability, personal drive, and
yes, collective action.
Mike:
(2) When and to what extent should
society in general and NFB in particular encourage individual blind people
to strive for increased competence beyond that which they already possess
and when should we attempt to compensate these same individuals for any
supposed lack of competence?
Thoughts:
How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb.
One, but the light bulb needs to want to change.
This anecdote might point to a known problem of the many who receive public
assistance, and accept their position, striving for nothing better than,
let's be honest, substandard living.
More directly to the question, striving for more competence should be
encouraged as much as possible. Give one the basic understanding that
blindness should be respected, and you've got a good start. Truly connect a
blind person with the tools needed to make good decisions, choose a path,
and achieve success and happiness in life and you built a human being from
the ground up.
Compensating for lack of competence depends on what you're talking about. If
one can't perform in his job, he should be treated like the sighted. If one
can't travel independently, they need to problem-solve with others to find
solutions.
I am a pretty good traveler by the accounts of those who know me, but put me
in a big city, Boston for example, and I will ask for assistance to get out
of the correct side of the subway to take the correct set of stairs to get
to the street I am looking for. I don't assume I can do all in the NFB who
strengthens me, and start wandering the station to find my way
independently. If I ever live in Boston, or if I frequent the station a lot,
of course I will catch on, and do it alone.
Am I lacking travel skills? Probably so, but no level of training can make
me familiar and comfortable with knowing the layout of every station in the
city, or able to cross all major 6 corner intersections without assistance
for some of the time. I compensate day by day, case by case.
How much compensation society expects from a blind person is debatable, and
those who are concerned with blindness policy aught to arrive at some
measure of conclusion to this question to accomplish a mission. In other
words, this is a good question to address as an organization in order to
have a coherent guiding principle or two.
How much compensation blind people think other blind people need requires a
case by case approach, not a blanket statement. Still, it is prudent to have
guiding principles to use on the general approach for the organization.
We have been talking, debating, and thinking about this for as long as I've
been in the NFB. 12 years, but certainly before, too.
One thing we can never expect is that even most blind people will reach the
same level of competence, no matter what standards are set.
(3) How do we distinguish between flexibility
of training and/or expectations and knuckling under to our
all-too-often-experience of having reduced expectations of ourselves and
others by virtue of our/their blindness?
Thoughts:
I am glad this question addresses our expectations of ourselves. Self-doubt
is not felt just by blind people. It is a matter of human psychology and
development. We are subject to the same factors in human psychology and
development as the sighted, but often, we in the federation are concerned
with fixing blindness attitudes, and think that to be the answer for lifting
up a blind person. Life struggles tend to focus the answer on one's level of
independence. One may do all that they can to prove they're independent, and
the matters of human psychology and development get swepped under the rug
because one may feel ashamed to show some lack of competence. After all, all
they need to do is to become independent, and all is good as new.
Distinguishing flexibility from low expectations is a difficult matter,
especially considering how people in general resist to new ideas, and get
stuck with old thoughts that they are not capable.
I think we can learn an approach to comparing training and low expectations
by observing how much effort a person puts into learning a skill, or
achieving a goal. If there is no effort, there is no will, and no will is
the same as no faith.
Sincerely,
Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
Student, Western Governors University
(617) 744-9716
Eastern time zone
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> Right. And your musings below then lead to a number of further questions:
> (1) what level of competence should members of society routinely assume
> blind people have (I suspect we would receive different answers from
> different organizations of the blind)? (2) When and to what extent should
> society in general and NFB in particular encourage individual blind people
> to strive for increased competence beyond that which they already possess
> and when should we attempt to compensate these same individuals for any
> supposed lack of competence? (3) How do we distinguish between flexibility
> of training and/or expectations and knuckling under to our
> all-too-often-experience of having reduced expectations of ourselves and
> others by virtue of our/their blindness?
>
> No one ever said tackling any philosophy of living at the margins would be
> easy.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>>I think the point here is that we are living in the real world and not a
>>utopian world where all blind people will receive the proper training or
>>adapt to all levels of the so-called proper training. The question now
>>becomes whether "proper training" is the same for all blind people. and
>>what happens for whatever reason if the ability to attain the necessary
>>skills that define completion of proper training are not achieved for
>>whatever reason by all reasons. This proposed issue regarding proper
>>training is similar to the problems that exist as a result of reliance on
>>too much standardized testing for achievement for students in our schools
>>or reliance on such mandatory standards such as high school exit exams for
>>all students. The reality now becomes that since we are in the real world
>>which is not perfect there will degrees of attainment of the competence
>>referred to with the so-called proper training and the degree to which
>>blindness becomes merely a nuisance is related to the degree to which a
>>blind person accomplishes the so-called "proper training." As a result of
>>this we are now back to the current position that we deal with in the real
>>world that the degree that blindness is merely a nuisance is an individual
>>factor determined by many variables which I don't need to go in to here as
>>it doesn't take much imagination to consider what these variables are.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB philosophy
>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the
>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for
>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>
>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." And
>>> I think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>> dissertation about how similar the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. The
>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim. It
>>> inevitably will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an
>>> accomodation, any accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid of
>>> the philosophy all together.
>>>
>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But it
>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>
>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the
>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do
>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Okay John, So, let me see if I understand you correctly. What some of
>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not
>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the NFB
>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its philosophy? I want you to
>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going. Because,
>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward thinking
>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we advance
>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close
>>>>> to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince
>>>>> Lombardi.
>>>>>
>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who would
>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him.
>>>>> What he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a
>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what it
>>>>> is to be human. You've got to have the will to win, to be the best
>>>>> you can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but
>>>>> on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than
>>>>> you ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself
>>>>> can be fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest
>>>>> feeling you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going
>>>>> to be the best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to
>>>>> learn to play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running
>>>>> and swimming.
>>>>>
>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard." Instead
>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You don't
>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily morphed
>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But not
>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win. And no one
>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>
>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it
>>>>> gives you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never
>>>>> settling for anything short of success is implied in the NFB
>>>>> philosophy but not spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB
>>>>> philosophy would have been that the most important thing in life for a
>>>>> blind person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance. You
>>>>> may never get there but the most important thing is to never be
>>>>> satisfied until it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming. I think the best I
>>>>>> would at
>>>>>> my skill level is circles! Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>> like to hear about it. I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>> keep
>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>> the way
>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
>>>>>> on every
>>>>>> stroke. That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>> After
>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone? Why? Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh? Do you ever have to share a lane? If so,
>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter a
>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player. I do wish it
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter. With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is still
>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>> National Library Service. You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I guess
>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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