[nfb-talk] Traffic Signals
Wm. Ritchhart
william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net
Thu Dec 9 23:06:47 UTC 2010
John,
I agree with what you say about verifying it is safe in spite of the light
being green. However I also believe that the masking of the normal traffic
sounds that occurs with the audible signals creates a greater risk to the
blind traveler.
Thanks, William
-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John Heim
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 4:08 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here WeGoAgain: Home
Makeover-blindcouple in OH
David, I can't say nobody ever stepped into an intersection just because the
audible signal started clanging. But that's no reason to argue against
audible signals. It makes no more sense than saying they should get rid of
walk lights because some people might step into the intersection when they
see the light turn green.
I suppose in the long history of the world, lots of people have just walked
off into the street when the walk signal turned green and got run over. But
that's no reason to get rid of walk lights. Likewise, if people are foolish
enough to not bother listening for traffic when the audible signal starts
beeping, well, that's terrible but it is not a reason to do away with
audible signals.
Also, you do not get the same information from the traffic surge as you do
from a audible signal. The traffic surge is not nearly as dependable or as
clear. Some streets are deliberately configured so that there is no surge.
They time the lights so that the cars arrive just as the light changes.
Secondly, its easy to confuse the sound of a car making a left turn for the
sound of a car starting out at a green light. Third, the audible signals
provide information on the location of the opposite curb.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Evans" <drevans at bellsouth.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here WeGoAgain: Home Makeover-blindcouple
in OH
>
> Dear John,
>
> Audible signals do not , of themselves , make street crossing any safer.
> The actions of drivers and above all the Blind crosser do. We can never
> have complete control of what the drivers will do, but we can control
> what, we do.
> Part of that action is listening to make sure , as much as we can, that
> all cars are stopped or moving in a parallel direction.
> We can get the same information , the audible signal gives, that is that
> the light has changed, just from the sound of the parallel traffic surging
> forward and the sound of the cars stopped at the crosswalk.
> Audible signals do not, of themselves, force the cars to stop, dead in
> their tracks, and wait for us to cross. No steel barrier jumps out of the
> pavement to prevent them from running through the intersection and
> running us down. The sound of the audible signal only lets us know that
> the light has changed, something we already know from the sound of the
> traffic. Just because we know that the light has changed does not
> automatically make it safe or safer to cross than if there were no light
> present at all.
> I have pulled 3 people back from getting run down at the old audible
> signal in front of the Lighthouse of the Palm Beaches over the years.
> The cars can and do run the lights, noise and All.
> They even tried making the signal louder, you can hear it almost half a
> mile away, and it still did no good.
> It actually covered up the sounds of the cars and made it more dangerous.
> I refused and still refuse to use such crossings. I do not press the
> buttons anymore as the sounds of the traffic give me all of the clues I
> need to tell when it is safe to cross or not.
> I routinely cross Glades Road and State Road 7 in West Boca Raton,
> Florida.
> This is the intersection of two 6 lane roads, with duel left hand turn
> lanes at all 4 corners, meridians in between the opposing traffic
> directions and right on red lanes at all 4 corners. There are 80,000 cars
> going through the intersection daily and NO AUDIBLE SIGNALS, Thank God!!!
> I have been crossing there for the past 32 years. I cross it in both the
> Nor to South and the East to West directions.
> The cars making the Right on Red are the biggest hazard I face and that is
> where I especially need unobstructed hearing so I can hear that descending
> wine of tires and gear trains of the cars as they slow, but do not stop
> for the red light. My hearing is what makes the difference in crossing
> the streets safely.
> Many people, who do use the audible, just get use to the sound and step
> off the curb without checking to make sure it is safe. They get into a
> false sense of security and drop their guard. The red lights nor the
> audible signals , make the cars stop. Heck, our county is making a mint
> off money on the fines from the stop light cameras here in my county and
> we only have a few of them right now. The county plans to install more as
> it is proving to be a great revenue stream.
>
> I know that you may find it hard to believe John, But their are many of us
> who don't need audible signals, Don't want them and even avoid them
> because they mask the sound of traffic, which is the only good information
> we, as blind people, can depend upon.
> I will agree that there are some unusual intersections where an audible
> signal may or may not be useful, but they are the exception and not the
> rule. They are not the answer to the problem to safe street crossing,
> good mobility training and hearing are by far the best tools we have in
> getting across alive.
> I don't care what you think or how many sightings of the ANSI you can dig
> up. I have served on the ANSI before and know that they don't always get
> it right or know what is best for everyone.
> You always believe that your logic and opinion is the best and just get
> into circular arguments with members on this list, talking down to us and
> trying to shame us into your way of thinking or because we don't agree
> with your point of view. You try to hide , smugly, behind your logic and
> condescend to those who disagree with you.
> I, for one, don't agree with you and likely never will.
> I shall use my choice and delete all messages from you in the future as
> soon as I see your name.
> I feel sorry for you that you are so afraid to cross without an audible
> signal and you feel you must brow beat all others into your own way of
> thinking.
>
> GOOD DAY to you sir!!!
>
> David Evans, NFBF and GD Jack.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Heim" <john at johnheim.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We GoAgain: Home
> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>
>
>> Well, I can't imagine why anyone would deliberatly do something so
>> dangerous. But its not really relevant anyway. I mean, I wouldn't want
>> you to get hit by a car but your rather odd personal preference aside,
>> the fact remains that audible walk signals make it safer for blind people
>> to cross streets.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>
>>
>>> Yes, I ignore audible walk signals. I rely on the traffic.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Heim" <john at johnheim.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>>
>>>
>>> Cindy, think about what you're saying. You ignore audible walk signals?
>>> Do
>>> you realize how dangerous that is? What would you think of someone who
>>> said
>>> they ignore visible walk signals? You know that's illegal, right? Do
>>> you
>>> know why its illegal? Because its dangerous!
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:38 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>>
>>>
>>>>I don't think Connie, (or her experiences with audible traffic signals)
>>>>is
>>>> unusual. I haven't encountered them frequently. But, I dislike them,
>>>> when
>>>> I have. I try my best to ignore them. But, if they're loud, it's hard
>>>> to
>>>> do.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "John Heim" <john at johnheim.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:45 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, you are unusual.
>>>>
>>>> You don't have to take my word for it, of course. The Access Board web
>>>> site
>>>> has quite a bit of information on the research on audible walk signals.
>>>> Audible walk signals make blind people safer. That is not debatable.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Constance Canode" <satin-bear at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 2:09 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>> Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As a good cane traveler and experienced in travel all over the
>>>>> country, I
>>>>> find the audible signals distracting when you are trying to listen to
>>>>> traffic, especially if the are louder than the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>> At 01:58 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>Yeah, a driver can still make a mistake and the audible signal won't
>>>>>>protect you. But audible walk signals aren't to keep drivers from
>>>>>>making
>>>>>>mistakes. They're to keep blind people from making mistakes. And
>>>>>>they're
>>>>>>really good for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>>>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:51 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>>>>Makeover-blindcouple in OH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If there's a light, it's not difficult. A car is just as likely to
>>>>>>>hit
>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>in a lighted intersection with or without an audible signal. If the
>>>>>>>crossing is done without stop signs or some other type of traffic
>>>>>>>control,
>>>>>>>then I agree something is required, but I think audible signals
>>>>>>>should
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>enhancers if used, not requirements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>sleeves,
>>>>>>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: John Heim [mailto:john at johnheim.net]
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:32 PM
>>>>>>>To: jsorozco at gmail.com; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>>>>>Makeover -blindcouple in OH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>She didn't say it was too much of a challenge to cross the street.
>>>>>>>She
>>>>>>>demonstrated how difficult it is. Sometimes, it is difficult.
>>>>>>>There are
>>>>>>>intersections where having an accessible pedestrian signal makes it
>>>>>>>way
>>>>>>>easier and way safer for a blind person to cross. Its impossible to
>>>>>>>say
>>>>>>>whether an accessible pedestrian signal was really necessary on
>>>>>>>that corner
>>>>>>>but I see no reason to doubt it. I say when in doubt, put the signal
>>>>>>>in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:18 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>>>>>Makeover -blindcouple in OH
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You know, if they were willing to give me all them there
>>>>>>>gifts, I'll be
>>>>>>>>glad
>>>>>>>>to accept them and simultaneously correct their misconceptions of
>>>>>>>>blindness.
>>>>>>>>A win/win! LOL I'm just curious to hear what it is they
>>>>>>>counsel people
>>>>>>>>about empowerment if the street intersection is too much of a
>>>>>>>challenge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>their sleeves,
>>>>>>>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rovig, Lorraine
>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:02 PM
>>>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] [NFB-talk] Here We Go Again: Home
>>>>>>>>Makeover - blindcouple in OH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Here We Go Again: Home Makeover Extreme Edition - blind couple in OH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, I watched it. It was pretty bad and it could have been worse.
>>>>>>>>It
>>>>>>>>could have been a lot better too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Their original bathroom -- a sink fell off the wall once when
>>>>>>>>Jasmine
>>>>>>>>washed her hands so they had no bathroom sink; the old toilet would
>>>>>>>>swivel left and right about 20 degrees either way if your toe
>>>>>>>pushed it.
>>>>>>>>Other parts of the old home and front porch were dangerous.
>>>>>>>The part of
>>>>>>>>the old house facing the street appeared to be two-rooms wide, small
>>>>>>>>rooms, and I do not remember if it was two-story. They were given a
>>>>>>>>two-story, large, modern home with all new appliances in the
>>>>>>>>kitchen,
>>>>>>>>laundry room, every other room, and etcetera.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This is an African-American family, the Andersons of Maple
>>>>>>>Heights, Ohio
>>>>>>>>(near Cleveland). I do not know if either one has a job; both
>>>>>>>appear to
>>>>>>>>be in their early 40s. The mother, Jasmine, states she is visually
>>>>>>>>impaired. She uses a folding cane with a fat white tip that I
>>>>>>>think is a
>>>>>>>>marshmallow tip. Husband, Andre, pronounced the French way,
>>>>>>>is totally
>>>>>>>>blind and uses a guide dog named Valentine. The show gave the dog a
>>>>>>>>heart-shaped bed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jasmine gave a tiny monologue stating she lost enough sight to be
>>>>>>>>visually impaired and was depressed for awhile but then she became
>>>>>>>>"courageous" like she is now. They never charge for their
>>>>>>>>[untrained]
>>>>>>>>counseling and encouragement of other people with disabilities. They
>>>>>>>>give lots of speeches to educate the community how to make life
>>>>>>>>easier
>>>>>>>>for blind people and people with other disabilities.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The couple told us they are in danger every time they cross a
>>>>>>>street and
>>>>>>>>the camera mike was held close to trucks and cars as vehicles
>>>>>>>zoomed by
>>>>>>>>on a city street. Jasmine said she was hit in the shoulder by a
>>>>>>>>moving
>>>>>>>>car one time. Ty Pennington, the shows' big-hearted hero,
>>>>>>>>furniture-designer and designer of his own line of linens and other
>>>>>>>>goods for the home, excellent carpenter and TV show leader, went on
>>>>>>>>about how dangerous it is for blind people every day when they are
>>>>>>>>outside the home. He got installed for the Andersons a fancy talking
>>>>>>>>device at the single crossing nearest to their home at their bus
>>>>>>>>stop.
>>>>>>>>Jasmine told us "we're not the only blind people living here,
>>>>>>>you know"
>>>>>>>>and, she said, this will help people with other disabilities that
>>>>>>>>live
>>>>>>>>in their neighborhood too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The show gave her a CCTV rigged to a lady's dressing table so she
>>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>>see to put on her make-up and not have to ask her son if she did it
>>>>>>>>okay. She got choked up that she can see her nails now and can paint
>>>>>>>>them as she could not see to do before, and for the first time she
>>>>>>>>exclaims, as we watch her look at it, she can see the
>>>>>>>beautiful ring her
>>>>>>>>husband gave her.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In the old house, Jasmine shoved up the sleeves on her dress
>>>>>>>to show Ty
>>>>>>>>and us the many burns on her arms that she got from using her
>>>>>>>>conventional electric 4-burner stove and oven. The show gave her
>>>>>>>>"induction heating" which does not give out any heat except to a
>>>>>>>>metal
>>>>>>>>pot placed on the burner, and she got a wall oven so her oven is at
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>better height for her to use. The house got a talking
>>>>>>>temperature gauge.
>>>>>>>>On the plus side, so the two wouldn't get lost, nothing odd was
>>>>>>>>built
>>>>>>>>into the kitchen or the walls and floors. Also on the plus
>>>>>>>side, except
>>>>>>>>for the induction oven, normal if fancy Sears's appliances were
>>>>>>>>placed
>>>>>>>>in the home for the kitchen and the baths.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Both Andre and Jasmine got computers that I think had JAWS
>>>>>>>installed on
>>>>>>>>them. They got a home theatre room with one "Sound Dome" over
>>>>>>>both their
>>>>>>>>heads that directs the sound directly only to them, and lets them
>>>>>>>>hear
>>>>>>>>the SAP channel along with the show. They have two very helpful,
>>>>>>>>respectful sons (one may be age 12 and the other is a young
>>>>>>>>teenager).
>>>>>>>>Ty stated the older son got a vacation from verbalizing what is on
>>>>>>>>screen plus he got the SAP thing with words running below the screen
>>>>>>>>when folks talked (which he needed but I missed the part that said
>>>>>>>>why
>>>>>>>>he did). The younger son is sure he wants to grow up to be an
>>>>>>>eye doctor
>>>>>>>>so he can cure blindness, beginning with his mother's visual
>>>>>>>impairment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Both Jasmine and Andre got brand new, fat-bodied, folding canes that
>>>>>>>>have built-in sensors to inform them of obstacles by their head and
>>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>>their feet, and, said Ty, "these aren't even on the market yet."
>>>>>>>>Andre
>>>>>>>>expressed their gratitude.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>They got a huge main room that runs from a living room
>>>>>>>grouping through
>>>>>>>>an empty space of floor to a dining room grouping to a kitchen with
>>>>>>>>no
>>>>>>>>barriers or changes in floor, so they do not have to worry
>>>>>>>anymore about
>>>>>>>>running into posts or walls, as they did run into in their cramped
>>>>>>>>original home. I noticed they are both bulky overweight
>>>>>>>people and the
>>>>>>>>original house doorways were older and appeared smallish, plus a
>>>>>>>>post
>>>>>>>>was inconveniently placed, especially for any overweight people
>>>>>>>>trying
>>>>>>>>to get past it to the bedrooms and bathroom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The mortgage company paid off and tore up their mortgage; the local
>>>>>>>>branch of the state college gave them 2 college scholarships for the
>>>>>>>>boys; Sears gave the four of them enough clothes and shoes to
>>>>>>>fill some
>>>>>>>>of their new closets; the local basketball team called The
>>>>>>>>Cavaliers,
>>>>>>>>gave the teen-aged son a closet-full of their clothes plus
>>>>>>>3-shelves of
>>>>>>>>their basketballs with its metal rack. The building company gave
>>>>>>>>them
>>>>>>>>$50,000 to a fund to handle their home maintenance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Braille got a "shout out" as the modern lingo has it. Ty
>>>>>>>added palm-size
>>>>>>>>wooden "dots" to their bed's headboard to spell out in grade
>>>>>>>one, "Love
>>>>>>>>is Blind." Large print got a "shout out" too, with their top
>>>>>>>bed quilt
>>>>>>>>decorated with "Love is Blind" sewn on as stuffed, raised-up
>>>>>>>>hand-writing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(For me, I keep wondering how they and other Ty Pennington-show
>>>>>>>>homeowners can afford their new taxes on their giant gifts of money,
>>>>>>>>goods, and a huge new home.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The Andersons were so very grateful for all they received from Ty
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>Sears Company and ABC. Tears all around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You can view the entire episode on the Anderson Family via computer,
>>>>>>>>here:
>>>>>>>>http://abc.go.com/shows/extreme-makeover-home-edition
>>>>>>>>Anderson Family
>>>>>>>> | Full Episode
>>>>>>>>A visually impaired couple devoted to helping the community receives
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>home makeover, complete with technologies that help people with
>>>>>>>>disabilities;
>>>>>>>>EXTREME MAKEOVER: HOME EDITION - "Anderson Family" - Andre and
>>>>>>>>Jasmine
>>>>>>>>Anderson have never allowed their visual impairment to slow them
>>>>>>>>down,
>>>>>>>>but rather have faced it head on, and established the Disability
>>>>>>>>Awareness Center in Maple Heights, Ohio, to help others who are
>>>>>>>>struggling with sight loss. The couple and their sons learned
>>>>>>>they would
>>>>>>>>be recipients of a home makeover while aboard the public bus that
>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>ride every day. The "EM: HE" team surprised them on the bus
>>>>>>>and revealed
>>>>>>>>plans to give them a new "smart" home, equipped with technologies
>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>support people with disabilities. This episode of "Extreme Makeover:
>>>>>>>>Home Edition" airs SUNDAY, DECEMBER 5 (8:00-9:00 p.m., ET) on the
>>>>>>>>ABC
>>>>>>>>Television Network. (ABC/MIKE CROUCH) ANDERSON FAMILY HOME - AFTER -
>>>>>>>>BEDROOM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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