[nfb-talk] Enough already!

Sat Dec 11 22:19:11 UTC 2010

Sorry John,

I guess I didn't listen what was read.

I went over the message again, so sorry about that.

Thank you,

Gloria Whipple
Corresponding Secretary
Inland Empire chapter
nfb of WA

cell number: 509-475-4993

-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of John G. Heim
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:44 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!

Gloria, I didn't say blind people can't do plumbing. I said they shouldn't 
be expected to. That's a huge difference. The reason it matters is because 
some people on this list were criticizing that couple on television for not 
replacing their own toilet and bathroom sink. I said that criticism was 
unfair. That kind of repair would be beyond the majority of people in this 
country, blind or not.

Now, I can understand that occasionally, miscommunication occurs. But by now

this should be clear. I am not saying blind people can't do their own 
plumbing. Of course blind people can do plumbing. I do much of the plumbing 
around my own house. I even do some of the electrical repairs. I am well 
aware that blind people can do home repairs. I am not saying they can't and 
would never say that. I'm just saying that if someone can't do their own 
plumbing, its  no reason to criticize them. Okay? Clear now?

I would really appreciate it if people stopped saying that I said blind 
people can't maintain their own homes because I never said that and would 
never say that.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!

>I know what you are getting at, but who was attacking! I just stated that
> blind people can do anything that they want if they have the proper 
> training
> and when they choose to do it. If that is attacking, so be it.
>
> Right you are not the moderator, David Andrews is.
>
> Gloria Whipple
> Corresponding Secretary
> Inland Empire chapter
> nfb of WA
>
> cell number: 509-475-4993
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Wm. Ritchhart
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 11:53 AM
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
> Gloria,
>
> I'll start with stating that I am not the moderator.  I will follow up 
> with
> your response is exactly the sort of response that David was talking about
> when he told us to stop personal attacks.
>
> Do you not think that saying nothing would have been a more productive
> course than your response below?  By your email signature I see you are a
> chapter Secretary.  I believe that as a leader you should use some thought
> in your replies and not hit the send key so quickly.
>
> Please read your post to yourself again and ask yourself if that is how 
> you
> really want people to view you.  I suspect it is not.
>
> Thanks, William
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Gloria Whipple
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:19 PM
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
> You are full of it.
>
>
> Gloria Whipple
> Corresponding Secretary
> Inland Empire chapter
> nfb of WA
>
> cell number: 509-475-4993
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John Heim
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:06 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
> Joseph,  I never said that blind people can't be expected to maintain
> their own homes. That is a complete distortion of my comments. I
> suppose its hopeless to try to reason with you but what I said was
> that blind people cannot be expected to replace their own toilets and
> sinks. I doubt that most blind people do their own plumbing. I doubt
> that even most sighted people do those kind of repairs themselves.
>
>
> That seems like a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. I can't
> see why you're so angry about it. And I have to figure that most of
> the reasonable members of this list are as puzzled as I am.
>
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Probably I should've continued to do so, as originally was my
>> intent, for that very reason.  Yet I suspect there will be no
>> change, lest it come in the form of removing the "troublemaker" from
>> the list.  I suspect we both know who that's going to mean.
>>
>> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not
>> offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
>>
>> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about
>> how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic
>> home maintenance.  Yes, actually, they can!  We hold sighted people
>> responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions,
>> even if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
>>
>> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a
>> pass because they're blind?  And how dare we, the National
>> Federation of the Blind, argue otherwise?  What greater offense can
>> one give to the membership of an NFB listserv?
>>
>> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear
>> moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has
>> offended again and again, he surely would be.  Either he'd learn to
>> cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the
>> entire Federation, or he'd go away.  Any of the above is reasonable
>> as far as I'm concerned.
>>
>> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz.  The man is
>> willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it.  And he
>> can sure dish it out.  But he can take it as well as he can dish it
>> out.  I've gone a few rounds with him.  I've been forced to accept a
>> couple of his points as valid, and he's been forced to accept a
>> couple of mine.
>>
>> Now, I don't regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the
>> good of everyone, but truly I'd rather have him to deal with,
>> because he's not going to go crying to the moderator every time
>> someone hurts his feelings.  And to my knowledge, nobody was ever
>> threatened with removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to
>> stick it.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more
>>> progress here.  This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself
>>> to that.  I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt
>>> it necessary.  That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>
>>> Skype Name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being
>>>> attacked by
>>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips
>>>> given to
>>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you
>>>> were
>>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the  Ibill; instead,
>>>>> I'd advise
>>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways.  Myself,
>>>>> I'd love to
>>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>>>
>>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph
>>>>> because, as
>>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue;
>>>>> especially
>>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is one such case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument
>>>>>> I get
>>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like
>>>>>> myself who
>>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next
>>>>>> convention
>>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I-
>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my
>>>>>> humble
>>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak
>>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just
>>>>>>> because some
>>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal
>>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest
>>>>>>> discussion;
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names
>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading
>>>>>>> the posts
>>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who
>>>>>>> think as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold
>>>>>>> with me.  I'm
>>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't
>>>>>>> feel the need
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not
>>>>>>> know the
>>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or
>>>>>>> thinks or
>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should
>>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>>> than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is
>>>>>>> not what
>>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>> Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless
>>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has
>>>>>>> truly gone
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so
>>>>>>> that everyone
>>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some
>>>>>>> others here
>>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they
>>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and,
>>>>>>> sans the
>>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it
>>>>>>> is.  But,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> matters
>>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?
>>>>>>> Surely, you
>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>> know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in
>>>>>>> general,
>>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would
>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> reached
>>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over
>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>> couple of years or so?  I have, and I've double-checked the
>>>>>>>> archives to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> sure I wasn't reading something into it.  The pattern is that
>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for
>>>>>>>> the ability
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The
>>>>>>>> other side
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts,
>>>>>>>> some with
>>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger.  This
>>>>>>>> last group
>>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual
>>>>>>>> insists
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views.  You
>>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-
>>>>>>>> respected
>>>>>>>> federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he
>>>>>>>> may stand
>>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but
>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that
>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It's really got
>>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of
>>>>>>>> setting fires.
>>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the
>>>>>>>> territory.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can
>>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>> care of his
>>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie
>>>>>>>>>> Madoff,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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