[nfb-talk] Enough already!

Kenneth Chrane kenneth.chrane at verizon.net
Mon Dec 13 02:21:26 UTC 2010


Amen to you Gloria.

As Ruth Ashby said at The NFB National Convention in Miami, Florida in 1960; 
"let's Act Like Adults."

Ken Chrane

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!


> Your welcome!
>
>
> Gloria Whipple
> Corresponding Secretary
> Inland Empire chapter
> nfb of WA
>
> cell number: 509-475-4993
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of John G. Heim
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 3:39 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
> Thank you very much, Gloria. Don't give it another thought.  If I've ever
> said anything to offend you, I apologize too and you can be assured I 
> didn't
>
> mean it.
>
> PS: I know what you're thinking... What do I mean "if"?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 12:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> I do owe you an apology for telling you that you were full of it.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> Gloria Whipple
>> Corresponding Secretary
>> Inland Empire chapter
>> nfb of WA
>>
>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:44 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>
>> Gloria, I didn't say blind people can't do plumbing. I said they 
>> shouldn't
>> be expected to. That's a huge difference. The reason it matters is 
>> because
>> some people on this list were criticizing that couple on television for
>> not
>> replacing their own toilet and bathroom sink. I said that criticism was
>> unfair. That kind of repair would be beyond the majority of people in 
>> this
>> country, blind or not.
>>
>> Now, I can understand that occasionally, miscommunication occurs. But by
>> now
>>
>> this should be clear. I am not saying blind people can't do their own
>> plumbing. Of course blind people can do plumbing. I do much of the
>> plumbing
>> around my own house. I even do some of the electrical repairs. I am well
>> aware that blind people can do home repairs. I am not saying they can't
>> and
>> would never say that. I'm just saying that if someone can't do their own
>> plumbing, its  no reason to criticize them. Okay? Clear now?
>>
>> I would really appreciate it if people stopped saying that I said blind
>> people can't maintain their own homes because I never said that and would
>> never say that.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Gloria Whipple" <fairyfoot at webband.com>
>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 2:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>
>>
>>>I know what you are getting at, but who was attacking! I just stated that
>>> blind people can do anything that they want if they have the proper
>>> training
>>> and when they choose to do it. If that is attacking, so be it.
>>>
>>> Right you are not the moderator, David Andrews is.
>>>
>>> Gloria Whipple
>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>> nfb of WA
>>>
>>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Wm. Ritchhart
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 11:53 AM
>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>>
>>> Gloria,
>>>
>>> I'll start with stating that I am not the moderator.  I will follow up
>>> with
>>> your response is exactly the sort of response that David was talking
>>> about
>>> when he told us to stop personal attacks.
>>>
>>> Do you not think that saying nothing would have been a more productive
>>> course than your response below?  By your email signature I see you are 
>>> a
>>> chapter Secretary.  I believe that as a leader you should use some
>>> thought
>>> in your replies and not hit the send key so quickly.
>>>
>>> Please read your post to yourself again and ask yourself if that is how
>>> you
>>> really want people to view you.  I suspect it is not.
>>>
>>> Thanks, William
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Gloria Whipple
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 1:19 PM
>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>>
>>> You are full of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gloria Whipple
>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>> nfb of WA
>>>
>>> cell number: 509-475-4993
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of John Heim
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:06 AM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Enough already!
>>>
>>> Joseph,  I never said that blind people can't be expected to maintain
>>> their own homes. That is a complete distortion of my comments. I
>>> suppose its hopeless to try to reason with you but what I said was
>>> that blind people cannot be expected to replace their own toilets and
>>> sinks. I doubt that most blind people do their own plumbing. I doubt
>>> that even most sighted people do those kind of repairs themselves.
>>>
>>>
>>> That seems like a perfectly reasonable point of view to me. I can't
>>> see why you're so angry about it. And I have to figure that most of
>>> the reasonable members of this list are as puzzled as I am.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 10, 2010, at 7:26 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ray,
>>>>
>>>> Probably I should've continued to do so, as originally was my
>>>> intent, for that very reason.  Yet I suspect there will be no
>>>> change, lest it come in the form of removing the "troublemaker" from
>>>> the list.  I suspect we both know who that's going to mean.
>>>>
>>>> The tyranny of the offended minority, demanding the right to be not
>>>> offended, while at the same time being profoundly offensive.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, the thing that finally did it for me was the comment about
>>>> how blind people cannot really be expected to manage their own basic
>>>> home maintenance.  Yes, actually, they can!  We hold sighted people
>>>> responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary living conditions,
>>>> even if they cannot do the repairs themselves!
>>>>
>>>> Yet this entitled little whiner thinks a couple of people deserve a
>>>> pass because they're blind?  And how dare we, the National
>>>> Federation of the Blind, argue otherwise?  What greater offense can
>>>> one give to the membership of an NFB listserv?
>>>>
>>>> He deserves to be flamed for such statements, and if our dear
>>>> moderator would stop protecting him from the anger of those he has
>>>> offended again and again, he surely would be.  Either he'd learn to
>>>> cope, learn to stop going out of his way to anger pretty much the
>>>> entire Federation, or he'd go away.  Any of the above is reasonable
>>>> as far as I'm concerned.
>>>>
>>>> Y'know, I never really had a problem with Joe Harcz.  The man is
>>>> willfully offensive to any federationist, and he knows it.  And he
>>>> can sure dish it out.  But he can take it as well as he can dish it
>>>> out.  I've gone a few rounds with him.  I've been forced to accept a
>>>> couple of his points as valid, and he's been forced to accept a
>>>> couple of mine.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I don't regret that he was removed from the NFB lists for the
>>>> good of everyone, but truly I'd rather have him to deal with,
>>>> because he's not going to go crying to the moderator every time
>>>> someone hurts his feelings.  And to my knowledge, nobody was ever
>>>> threatened with removal from the list for telling Joe Harcz where to
>>>> stick it.
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 04:56:07PM -0600, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>>> Josh, I reckon if we could avoid naming names, we might make more
>>>>> progress here.  This is not a thread which, I think, lends itself
>>>>> to that.  I'm sure Joseph and I would have named names if we felt
>>>>> it necessary.  That's why I have not and will not do so now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, My teacher in High School did show me different ways to fold my
>>>>>> money, and that's what I do. You and I can discuss this in another
>>>>>> thread. I have something to say on the topic of this thread as well.
>>>>>> I've noticed how us conservatives on this thread are being
>>>>>> attacked by
>>>>>> the liberals here. Gloria, you, Ms. Judy, and others have been
>>>>>> attacked because we disagreed with the little implanted chips
>>>>>> given to
>>>>>> visually impaired people. That's just one of those instances you
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> referring to. Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, Josh, my answer to you would not be the  Ibill; instead,
>>>>>>> I'd advise
>>>>>>> you to just save your money and fold it different ways.  Myself,
>>>>>>> I'd love to
>>>>>>> have the Ibill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Back to the topic though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I felt a need to come on here and publically support Joseph
>>>>>>> because, as
>>>>>>> usual, I can't stand to see a friend stand alone on an issue;
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>> when I feel he or she is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is one such case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly, although, I disagree with
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> NFB's stance on accessible currency for the blind. The argument
>>>>>>>> I get
>>>>>>>> from most NFB members is, "well, get the I-Bill," but they don't
>>>>>>>> understand is that it's too expensive for some of us, like
>>>>>>>> myself who
>>>>>>>> are going to college, and having to pay for that. $99 for a little
>>>>>>>> gadget is too much. If they'll lower the price at the next
>>>>>>>> convention
>>>>>>>> that I'll be able to attend, (2012 in Dallas,) I'll buy the I-
>>>>>>>> Bill.
>>>>>>>> But until then, accessible currency is the way to go, (just my
>>>>>>>> humble
>>>>>>>> oppinion.) Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12/9/10, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> David, I must agree with Joseph on this point.  I will speak
>>>>>>>>> frankly
>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>> Why do you tolerate vicious attacks on not only the NFB but on
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>>> of this list who hold with that way of thinking, not just
>>>>>>>>> because some
>>>>>>>>> federation leader says so, but because of their own personal
>>>>>>>>> experience?
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> understand wanting to tolerate healthy and open and honest
>>>>>>>>> discussion;
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> David, there are some individuals, (I'm not going to name names
>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>> believe you know who they are if you have been truly reading
>>>>>>>>> the posts
>>>>>>>>> here), who have violently attacked not only me but others who
>>>>>>>>> think as I
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>> I have had enough; and, so, I dare say, have those who hold
>>>>>>>>> with me.  I'm
>>>>>>>>> not giving out the names of these attackers because I don't
>>>>>>>>> feel the need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> sink this list in to that mire.  If a person honestly does not
>>>>>>>>> know the
>>>>>>>>> answer to the reason why an independent blind person says or
>>>>>>>>> thinks or
>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> something, of course, it goes without  saying that they should
>>>>>>>>> feel more
>>>>>>>>> than free to ask.  But Dave, I think we both know that this is
>>>>>>>>> not what
>>>>>>>>> Joseph and I are talking about here.  Honest ignorance is one
>>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>>> Attacks are another.  I will not claim to be totally guiltless
>>>>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>>>>> this regard, and so, indeed, I may not be.  However, this has
>>>>>>>>> truly gone
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> quite long enough.  I'm writing this as an open response so
>>>>>>>>> that everyone
>>>>>>>>> may know just exactly how I feel.  Mind you, I can't speak for
>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>> directly, (only they can and must), but, I think I know some
>>>>>>>>> others here
>>>>>>>>> well enough to be able to make a fairly good guess at how they
>>>>>>>>> feel.
>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> is supposed to be a list where ideas can be freely shared, and,
>>>>>>>>> sans the
>>>>>>>>> personal attacks, (which have become more and more of late), it
>>>>>>>>> is.  But,
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> too have noticed that those who defend the NFB positions on
>>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>>> matters
>>>>>>>>> are threatened and the attackers defended.  Why is this?
>>>>>>>>> Surely, you
>>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>>> know what I'm talking about?  I believe you do.  Tolerance is, in
>>>>>>>>> general,
>>>>>>>>> good, but, there comes a time when enough is enough.  It would
>>>>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>> (at least with respect to Joseph and myself), our patience has
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> reached
>>>>>>>>> it's end.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 2:05 PM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> David,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you noticed the trend of discussions on this list over
>>>>>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>>>>> couple of years or so?  I have, and I've double-checked the
>>>>>>>>>> archives to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> sure I wasn't reading something into it.  The pattern is that
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>> discussion seems to involve one group of people arguing for
>>>>>>>>>> the ability
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the blind, for the NFB, its policies, and its mission.  The
>>>>>>>>>> other side
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the discussion is generally one person.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The pattern of the discussion is that the individual says
>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>> incendiary against one of the above, something I have a hard
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> accepting is unintentional at this point.  The group reacts,
>>>>>>>>>> some with
>>>>>>>>>> distaste, some with disagreement, and some with anger.  This
>>>>>>>>>> last group
>>>>>>>>>> has taken the bait, if you will.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is where you come in, because inevitably the individual
>>>>>>>>>> insists
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> he is "offended" and "baselessly attacked" for his views.  You
>>>>>>>>>> defend
>>>>>>>>>> him,
>>>>>>>>>> going so far as to threaten to ban longtime regulars and well-
>>>>>>>>>> respected
>>>>>>>>>> federationists.  The individual takes this as a sign that he
>>>>>>>>>> may stand
>>>>>>>>>> behind you, and continue to insult not only us few here, but
>>>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>>>> this organization stands for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The fact that there is not a single person on this list that
>>>>>>>>>> does not
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> of whom I speak is evidence in and of itself.  It's really got
>>>>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>>>>> Those who would not be flamed should not make a habit of
>>>>>>>>>> setting fires.
>>>>>>>>>> Having set a few myself over the years, it comes with the
>>>>>>>>>> territory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 08, 2010 at 10:19:24PM -0600, David Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> This is a personal attack and is totally unacceptable.  You can
>>>>>>>>>>> disagree
>>>>>>>>>>> with someone -- but please stick to facts, not speculation etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David Andrews, Moderator
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At 03:09 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree Gloria.  He is a very shallow person, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> care of his
>>>>>>>>>>>> $250,000 house is paid off or not.  He could rip off Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>> Madoff,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest cheat in the world, and he wouldn't impress me..smile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Connie Canode
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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