[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Sat Jul 17 22:23:00 UTC 2010


Buddy:

In a sense, you are absolutely correct. But in phrasing things as you 
indicate below, what I'm getting at is that we (the blind) tend to think 
that we're the only ones who make silly mistakes such as those of which we 
have been writing, implying thereby that they are due to our incompetence as 
blind persons. Lest you doubt me, remember it was Dr. Jernigan who spoke of 
walking through a cafeteria with a sighted colleague, hearing a glass of 
water spill from a tray, remarking smugly that there were those who would 
impute such clumsiness to his blindness, only to be told that it was his 
sighted colleague who had overturned the water. (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Since we're talking about philosophy, what do we mean when we say 
> something like, "Even sighted people do..." or "So-and-so can't do this, 
> and s/he can see."?
>
> This is something I've been thinking about for a long time now. Certainly 
> not obsessively, but it's crossed my mind several times over the past 
> several years, and it kind of bugs me.
>
> When we say things like, "so-and-so can't do thus-and-such, and he can 
> see", or "Even sighted people do this or that thing", are we not, even if 
> subconsciously, saying that our expectations for blind people are lower 
> than they are for sighted people? Or, put another way, are we not saying 
> that we expect sighted people to do something better, for the sole fact of 
> their sightedness, and really, it's OK if we can't, because they can't 
> either?
>
> Because of this bit of possible hair splitting, I am very careful these 
> days about how I say things. Some may call it hair splitting, nit picking, 
> or what have you, but if there's anything that we should have learned from 
> such notables as Dr. Jernigan, it is that words mean things, and the words 
> we use are very powerful things, and they can and do shape our 
> perceptions.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Dewey Bradley wrote:
>
>> this is funny because we have all done something like that, even sighted 
>> people do stuff like that.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> I don't think this fits the pattern that you and Mike were discussing. 
>>> In this case, nobody is making fun of you, you made
>>> a mistake and you needed to handle it in the way you felt made the most 
>>> sense.  I would submit that by laughing about it
>>> a little, you probably helped yourself, and you probably gained an 
>>> opportunity to let the attendant know why it happened
>>> and that you really do have a system to tell them apart.  I would feel 
>>> less positive, though, if someone who didn't know
>>> that this doesn't usually happen made a comedy skit out of this without 
>>> any explanation such as what you likely could
>>> have provided.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:20:09 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>> You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this 
>>>> matter more than you might at first suppose.  The
>>> issues you bring up are points that are well taken.  IN fact, I'll add 
>>> to your points by giving yet another example.
>>> Remember "Good and Evil"?  I do.  did I think that show was funny?  Hell 
>>> no!!!  I thought it was exactly the worst thing
>>> to come along in years.  IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the 
>>> commercial you sighted in your message.  Still,
>>> while your points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly 
>>> good case.  For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get
>>> to the laundry mat and in my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather 
>>> than detergent.  Yes, that actually happened to
>>> me.  I put the powder in to the machine and put my clothes in.  The 
>>> attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh,
>>> excuse me sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?". 
>>> You can imagine how embarrassed I was.
>>> Now, let's look at that episode.  ON the one hand, one hand, one could 
>>> argue the point that this incident would make
>>> the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry 
>>> detergent and pancake mix.  He might, therefore, have
>>> a view of blindness that is colored by that happening.  Therefore, by 
>>> allowing that bit of carelessness to occurr, one
>>> could say that i betrayed the cause and set us bakc many years.  At this 
>>> point, some might perhaps call me a trator to
>>> the movement because of this.  In my first days in the outfit, I too 
>>> might have said as much.  On the other hand, one
>>> could argue that the story is funny for its own sake.  The laundry mat 
>>> attendant could easily have his view of blindness
>>> corrected by others, (many others) who would not make that mistake.  So, 
>>> let me stop here and ask one simple question.
>>> What says the list to that?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Ray:
>>>>>
>>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize 
>>>>> because almost universally, there are
>>> exceptions to any rule. But with respect to humor regarding aspects of 
>>> blindness, I think we must ask ourselves *why*
>>> we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular blindness-related 
>>> incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical 
>>>>> company touting the need to wear good glasses
>>> (this was before lasic) by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a 
>>> camping trip with her stole her glasses and laughed
>>> themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how ridiculous she 
>>> looked stumbling about and doing awkward
>>> things because she couldn't see.
>>>>>
>>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for 
>>>>> the kids to laugh about something the mom
>>> couldn't help because she wasn't trained as a blind person and had I 
>>> been her, I'd have tanned their hides. This sort of
>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's 
>>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr.
>>> Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons are like 
>>> that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>>>
>>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting 
>>>>> it out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly
>>> pouring coffee all over the counter as a result -- that's just plain 
>>> funny because I knew better and had my head in the
>>> clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should 
>>> have.
>>>>>
>>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because 
>>>>> it's funny or because we are laughing at what
>>> we take to be our misfortune.
>>>>>
>>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others 
>>>>> (including ourselves) assume that we need help when
>>> we may not and (b) that we may falsely assume that we can't do something 
>>> so elect not to try. Every one of us (including
>>> those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it and/or when it's 
>>> convenient for us and others. Where this gets
>>> us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think 
>>> we can do without it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by 
>>>>> our view of blindness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think 
>>>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish
>>> blindness itself; rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make 
>>> blindness itself a mere nucence according to the
>>> perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We tend to see 
>>> ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as
>>> well.  It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to 
>>> fight, and the need for help from others seems to fly in
>>> the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at 
>>> least a little personal or professional
>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for 
>>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly
>>> needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which one is 
>>> fighting. I note the most recent issue of "The Braille
>>> Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly 
>>> worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that
>>> column, one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB 
>>>>>> always would brag about how they could
>>> always find their way through airports and never needed help; and 
>>> therefore, that one was not a true federationist if one
>>> either needed or accepted help regardless of how much that help was 
>>> actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were 
>>> reading the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".
>>> Here, I think the letter writer could have made a stronger case by 
>>> actually sighting issue and articles.  If the truth of the
>>> matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as the letter 
>>> writer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this 
>>>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in
>>> depth but it didn't go very far.  I sighted what I believed at the time 
>>> to be inconsistencies in what some leaders in the
>>> federation were saying and human reality.  It's human to laugh at things 
>>> which are truly funny; even things blindness
>>> related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for 
>>> example) said things which I took to be the attitude
>>> that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything 
>>> blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny.  But
>>> this philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny 
>>> human reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go 
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never 
>>>>>>> occured to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB 
>>>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've
>>> always believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own 
>>> philosophy is that the problem it is organized
>>> around is fairly minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is 
>>> a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." 
>>>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know
>>> that especially after my dissertation about how similar  the NFB 
>>> philosophy is to Lombardi's. The problem, as I see it, is
>>> that it is impossible to avoid having the philosophy to morph into 
>>> something that blames the victim.  It inevitably will lead
>>> to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any 
>>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the
>>> philosophy all together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really 
>>>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the
>>> philosophy be tweaked to address the problems I have seen? I'll admit 
>>> I'm very skeptical. But it sure is worth some
>>> thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would 
>>>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the
>>> NFB be effective as an advocacy group when its own philosophy is that 
>>> with proper training, blindness can be reduced
>>> to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the NFB (scary thought, I 
>>> know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do 
>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to
>>> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What 
>>>>>>>> some of us have viewed as your attacks on the
>>> NFB philosophy are actually not attacks at all; rather, they are 
>>> attempts on your part to help the NFB fulfill and perhaps
>>> even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to understand that I do not 
>>> intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because, 
>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
>>> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward 
>>> that if we advance it to the leadership of the
>>> NFB in exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise 
>>> obtainable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good 
>>>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB
>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB 
>>>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the
>>> truth. Its very close to my personal philosophy of life which is 
>>> borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who 
>>>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not
>>> what he was like at all. His players loved him and still gather to meet 
>>> each year to honor him. What he believed was that
>>> life's greatest moments come when you meet a challenge and over come it. 
>>> That's what life is about. That is what it is to
>>> be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you can 
>>> be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
>>> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll 
>>> do more than you ever thought you could. Second,
>>> you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do 
>>> succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever had.
>>> So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best damn blind 
>>> guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and 
>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into 
>>>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life
>>> is so hard."  Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do 
>>> about it?" You don't seek out adversity but when
>>> it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the 
>>>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is
>>> that it is easily morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for 
>>> losers. You can't live Lombardi's philosophy and be
>>> satisfied -- well ever really since perfection is impossible to obtain. 
>>> You can always get better. But not everybody has the
>>> same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no one has any right to 
>>> tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's 
>>>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I
>>> would say, though, that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of 
>>> the NFB in that it gives you a sort of method for
>>> carrying it out. The idea of never settling for anything short of 
>>> success is implied in the NFB philosophy but not spelled
>>> out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have been that 
>>> the most important thing in life for a blind
>>> person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may 
>>> never get there but the most important thing is to
>>> never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson" 
>>>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best 
>>>>>>>>>> I would at
>>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a 
>>>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of 
>>>>>>>>>> the lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the 
>>>>>>>>>> swimmers keep
>>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and 
>>>>>>>>>> on the way
>>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do 
>>>>>>>>>> is to swim
>>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane 
>>>>>>>>>> divider on every
>>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to 
>>>>>>>>>> improve. After
>>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills 
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> they set
>>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> minor
>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only 
>>>>>>>>>>>> means one
>>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> enter a
>>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I 
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nerd like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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