[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Mike Freeman k7uij at panix.com
Sat Jul 17 22:29:46 UTC 2010


Yeah; it took her a minute to figure out why I was laughing and then she sat 
down on the curb and howled with mirth.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?


> Mike, bet the lady chuckled, too.
>
> Margo and Arrow
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>>I once knew a lady who was unfamiliar with my neighborhood and who said 
>>hello to every lamp post for a block because she wasn't used to them being 
>>so close to the sidewalk! In truth, it *was* funny!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mike Bullis" <mabullis at hotmail.com>
>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>
>>
>>> Not knowing what it was, I hit a bush with my cane the other day as I 
>>> was
>>> walking quickly by and said excuse me.  I thought it was funny. 
>>> Although I
>>> know that many disagree with me about this, I simply find lots of things
>>> funny that are politically incorrect or self deprecating.  Humor, 
>>> perhaps
>>> sadly, but truly, is very much about the put down.
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 11:44 PM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>> because almost universally, there are exceptions to any rule. But with
>>> respect to humor regarding aspects of blindness, I think we must ask
>>> ourselves *why* we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular
>>> blindness-related incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical company
>>> touting the need to wear good glasses (this was before lasic) by using a
>>> skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping trip with her stole her glasses 
>>> and
>>> laughed themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how 
>>> ridiculous
>>> she looked stumbling about and doing awkward things because she couldn't
>>> see.
>>>
>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the 
>>> kids
>>>
>>> to laugh about something the mom couldn't help because she wasn't 
>>> trained as
>>>
>>> a blind person and had I been her, I'd have tanned their hides. This 
>>> sort of
>>>
>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's
>>> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr. Magoo) it gives 
>>> the
>>> impression that all vision-impaired persons are like that, it sets us 
>>> back
>>> immeasurably.
>>>
>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it 
>>> out
>>> of the cupboard and absent-mindedly pouring coffee all over the counter 
>>> as a
>>>
>>> result -- that's just plain funny because I knew better and had my head 
>>> in
>>> the clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should
>>> have.
>>>
>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because it's
>>> funny or because we are laughing at what we take to be our misfortune.
>>>
>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others (including
>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when we may not and (b) that we may
>>> falsely assume that we can't do something so elect not to try. Every one 
>>> of
>>> us (including those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it 
>>> and/or
>>> when it's convenient for us and others. Where this gets us into trouble 
>>> is
>>> when we ask for help so often that people don't think we can do without 
>>> it.
>>>
>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by 
>>> our
>>> view of blindness.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think 
>>>> that
>>>
>>>> the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself; rather, as 
>>>> I
>>>> understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself a mere 
>>>> nucence
>>>> according to the perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We 
>>>> tend
>>>
>>>> to see ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as well. 
>>>> It's
>>>
>>>> a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight, and the 
>>>> need
>>>
>>>> for help from others seems to fly in the face of any forward movement 
>>>> in
>>>> that cause, there tends to be at least a little personal or 
>>>> professional
>>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need 
>>>> for
>>>> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly needed) would even appear to
>>>> set back the cause for which one is fighting.  I note the most recent
>>>> issue of "The Braille Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit 
>>>> column
>>>
>>>> is particularly worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that 
>>>> column,
>>>> one of the letter writers indicate
>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>> always would brag about how they could always find their way through
>>>> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true
>>>> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how 
>>>> much
>>>
>>>> that help was actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer, 
>>>> indicated
>>>> that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were reading the 
>>>> same
>>>> issues of "The Braille Monitor".  Here, I think the letter writer could
>>>> have made a stronger case by actually sighting issue and articles.  If 
>>>> the
>>>
>>>> truth of the matter be known, I too was once under the same impression 
>>>> as
>>>> the letter writer.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this 
>>>> list,
>>>
>>>> I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't go very
>>>> far.  I sighted what I believed at the time to be inconsistencies in 
>>>> what
>>>> some leaders in the federation were saying and human reality.  It's 
>>>> human
>>>> to laugh at things which are truly funny; even things blindness 
>>>> related.
>>>> Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for example) said
>>>> things which I took to be the attitude that it was not acceptable for a
>>>> blind person to laugh at anything blindness related; even if it was
>>>> genuinely funny.  But this philosophy, if you live and breathe it
>>>> literally, tends to deny human reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>
>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go 
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured 
>>>>> to
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB 
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>> should be modified. The trouble is that I've always believed that an
>>>>> advocacy group cannot be effective when its own philosophy is that the
>>>>> problem it is organized around is fairly minor. Why bother working for
>>>>> change when blindness is a mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means." 
>>>>> And I
>>>
>>>>> think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>>>> dissertation about how similar  the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's. 
>>>>> The
>>>>> problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim.  It 
>>>>> inevitably
>>>
>>>>> will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, 
>>>>> any
>>>>> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the philosophy
>>>>> all together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But 
>>>>> it
>>>>> sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of 
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just 
>>>>> do
>>>>> not think they can work together. And you've got to admit that on the
>>>>> surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" 
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually not
>>>>>> attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help the 
>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>> fulfill and perhaps even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to
>>>>>> understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon you; 
>>>>>> but,
>>>>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going. 
>>>>>> Because,
>>>>>> if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather forward 
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>> discussion about a substantive way of moving forward that if we 
>>>>>> advance
>>>>>> it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the right way, we might
>>>>>> perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB 
>>>>>>> philosophy
>>>
>>>>>>> but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very close to my
>>>>>>> personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who 
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all. His
>>>>>>> players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor him. 
>>>>>>> What
>>>
>>>>>>> he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you meet a
>>>>>>> challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That is what 
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> is to be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best 
>>>>>>> you
>>>
>>>>>>> can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never obtain it but on
>>>>>>> the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll do more than 
>>>>>>> you
>>>
>>>>>>> ever thought you could. Second, you'll find the struggle itself can 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it will be the greatest 
>>>>>>> feeling
>>>>>>> you've ever had. So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> best damn blind guy I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>>>>>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and
>>>>>>> swimming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard."  Instead
>>>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You 
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily 
>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>> into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't live
>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really since
>>>>>>> perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better. But 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no 
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> has any right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it 
>>>>>>> gives
>>>
>>>>>>> you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never settling
>>>>>>> for anything short of success is implied in the NFB philosophy but 
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> been that the most important thing in life for a blind person is
>>>>>>> striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may never get
>>>>>>> there but the most important thing is to never be satisfied until it
>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I
>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>>>>>> swim
>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider 
>>>>>>>> on
>>>
>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If 
>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully. 
>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter 
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I 
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I 
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish it
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is 
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I 
>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the 
>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it 
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes 
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>
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