[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Sun Jul 18 01:03:53 UTC 2010


Jim! That was the perfect answer, and you put into words exactly what I was getting at, had internalized, but had not expressed properly. Man, I'm proud of you. 's all I can say, brother. 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Jul 17, 2010, at 8:31 PM, Jim wrote:

> Gosh, Buddy.  This is a great question.  No need to worry.  I'm up for a
> good discussion.
> 
> Here's what I think.  
> I think that when we say things like what you described, we are thinking
> that we have to be of some sort of high expectation.  For some strange
> reason, we think that just because sighted folks can see, they can do things
> with plenty of ease and finness.  For some reason, we blind folks think that
> sight almost means perfection and that they don't make as many mistakes or
> get themselves in awkward situations the way we do.  We think it's easy for
> us to get in binds and figure that sighted folks don't.  I've learned,
> throughout my life, that that is not necessarily the case.  Sighted folks
> have their share of mishaps and situations as well.
> Sometimes, it's easy for us to always put everything on blindness.  If
> something goes wrong, it's because of blindness, and for some reason, it
> makes us feel better knowing that a sighted person had something happen to
> them that might be somewhat embarrassing.
> 
> Let's remember that blind or sighted, we're people with varying degrees of
> skills and abilities.  The standard we need to be at is our own general
> human standard that is acceptable to society.
> Jim
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:50 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> 
> Since we're talking about philosophy, what do we mean when we say something
> like, "Even sighted people do..." or "So-and-so can't do this, and s/he can
> see."?
> 
> This is something I've been thinking about for a long time now. Certainly
> not obsessively, but it's crossed my mind several times over the past
> several years, and it kind of bugs me. 
> 
> When we say things like, "so-and-so can't do thus-and-such, and he can see",
> or "Even sighted people do this or that thing", are we not, even if
> subconsciously, saying that our expectations for blind people are lower than
> they are for sighted people? Or, put another way, are we not saying that we
> expect sighted people to do something better, for the sole fact of their
> sightedness, and really, it's OK if we can't, because they can't either? 
> 
> Because of this bit of possible hair splitting, I am very careful these days
> about how I say things. Some may call it hair splitting, nit picking, or
> what have you, but if there's anything that we should have learned from such
> notables as Dr. Jernigan, it is that words mean things, and the words we use
> are very powerful things, and they can and do shape our perceptions. 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 17, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Dewey Bradley wrote:
> 
>> this is funny because we have all done something like that, even sighted
> people do stuff like that.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 12:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>> 
>> 
>>> Ray,
>>> 
>>> I don't think this fits the pattern that you and Mike were discussing.
> In this case, nobody is making fun of you, you made
>>> a mistake and you needed to handle it in the way you felt made the most
> sense.  I would submit that by laughing about it
>>> a little, you probably helped yourself, and you probably gained an
> opportunity to let the attendant know why it happened
>>> and that you really do have a system to tell them apart.  I would feel
> less positive, though, if someone who didn't know
>>> that this doesn't usually happen made a comedy skit out of this without
> any explanation such as what you likely could
>>> have provided.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:20:09 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Mike,
>>> 
>>>> You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this
> matter more than you might at first suppose.  The
>>> issues you bring up are points that are well taken.  IN fact, I'll add to
> your points by giving yet another example.
>>> Remember "Good and Evil"?  I do.  did I think that show was funny?  Hell
> no!!!  I thought it was exactly the worst thing
>>> to come along in years.  IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the
> commercial you sighted in your message.  Still,
>>> while your points are well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly
> good case.  For example, let's say I am in a hurry to get
>>> to the laundry mat and in my haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather
> than detergent.  Yes, that actually happened to
>>> me.  I put the powder in to the machine and put my clothes in.  The
> attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh,
>>> excuse me sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?".
> You can imagine how embarrassed I was.
>>> Now, let's look at that episode.  ON the one hand, one hand, one could
> argue the point that this incident would make
>>> the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry
> detergent and pancake mix.  He might, therefore, have
>>> a view of blindness that is colored by that happening.  Therefore, by
> allowing that bit of carelessness to occurr, one
>>> could say that i betrayed the cause and set us bakc many years.  At this
> point, some might perhaps call me a trator to
>>> the movement because of this.  In my first days in the outfit, I too
> might have said as much.  On the other hand, one
>>> could argue that the story is funny for its own sake.  The laundry mat
> attendant could easily have his view of blindness
>>> corrected by others, (many others) who would not make that mistake.  So,
> let me stop here and ask one simple question.
>>> What says the list to that?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>> 
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> Ray:
>>>>> 
>>>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
> because almost universally, there are
>>> exceptions to any rule. But with respect to humor regarding aspects of
> blindness, I think we must ask ourselves *why*
>>> we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular blindness-related
> incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical
> company touting the need to wear good glasses
>>> (this was before lasic) by using a skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping
> trip with her stole her glasses and laughed
>>> themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how ridiculous she
> looked stumbling about and doing awkward
>>> things because she couldn't see.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the
> kids to laugh about something the mom
>>> couldn't help because she wasn't trained as a blind person and had I been
> her, I'd have tanned their hides. This sort of
>>> thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick comedy unappealing. It's
> basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as in Mr.
>>> Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons are like
> that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it
> out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly
>>> pouring coffee all over the counter as a result -- that's just plain
> funny because I knew better and had my head in the
>>> clouds rather than paying attention to what I was doing as I should have.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because
> it's funny or because we are laughing at what
>>> we take to be our misfortune.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others
> (including ourselves) assume that we need help when
>>> we may not and (b) that we may falsely assume that we can't do something
> so elect not to try. Every one of us (including
>>> those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it and/or when it's
> convenient for us and others. Where this gets
>>> us into trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think
> we can do without it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by
> our view of blindness.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing.  As I see it, I don't think
> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish
>>> blindness itself; rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make
> blindness itself a mere nucence according to the
>>> perceptions of both the sighted and blind alike.  We tend to see
> ourselves as others see us.  That includes the blind as
>>> well.  It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a cause to fight,
> and the need for help from others seems to fly in
>>> the face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at
> least a little personal or professional
>>> embarrassment at the idea of needing help; especially when that need for
> help and the taking of it, (how ever badly
>>> needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which one is
> fighting. I note the most recent issue of "The Braille
>>> Monitor" for July 2010.  The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly
> worth paying attention to.  Why?  Because in that
>>> column, one of the letter writers indicate
>>>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
> always would brag about how they could
>>> always find their way through airports and never needed help; and
> therefore, that one was not a true federationist if one
>>> either needed or accepted help regardless of how much that help was
> actually needed.  Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were
> reading the same issues of "The Braille Monitor".
>>> Here, I think the letter writer could have made a stronger case by
> actually sighting issue and articles.  If the truth of the
>>> matter be known, I too was once under the same impression as the letter
> writer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, I'll give you another.  The subject of laughter.  Once, on this
> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in
>>> depth but it didn't go very far.  I sighted what I believed at the time
> to be inconsistencies in what some leaders in the
>>> federation were saying and human reality.  It's human to laugh at things
> which are truly funny; even things blindness
>>> related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara Pierce for
> example) said things which I took to be the attitude
>>> that it was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything
> blindness related; even if it was genuinely funny.  But
>>> this philosophy, if you live and breathe it literally, tends to deny
> human reality.  What say y'all?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go
> with.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured
> to me.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB
> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've
>>> always believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own
> philosophy is that the problem it is organized
>>> around is fairly minor. Why bother working for change when blindness is a
> mere nuiscance anyway?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means."
> And I think it should be clear that I know
>>> that especially after my dissertation about how similar  the NFB
> philosophy is to Lombardi's. The problem, as I see it, is
>>> that it is impossible to avoid having the philosophy to morph into
> something that blames the victim.  It inevitably will lead
>>> to a situation where its a sin to ask for an accomodation, any
> accomodation.  The only solution I see is to get rid of the
>>> philosophy all together.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the
>>> philosophy be tweaked to address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm
> very skeptical. But it sure is worth some
>>> thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the
>>> NFB be effective as an advocacy group when its own philosophy is that
> with proper training, blindness can be reduced
>>> to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of the NFB (scary thought, I
> know), I could go on for days about how those 2
>>> ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter, I just do
> not think they can work together. And you've got to
>>> admit that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Okay John,  So, let me see if I understand you correctly.  What some
> of us have viewed as your attacks on the
>>> NFB philosophy are actually not attacks at all; rather, they are attempts
> on your part to help the NFB fulfill and perhaps
>>> even improve on its  philosophy?  I want you to understand that I do not
> intend my question as an attack upon you; but,
>>> instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are going.  Because, if
> so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
>>> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward
> that if we advance it to the leadership of the
>>> NFB in exactly the right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise
> obtainable.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB
>>> philosophy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
> philosophy but nothing could be further from the
>>> truth. Its very close to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed
> from Vince Lombardi.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who
> would do anything to win. No, that was not
>>> what he was like at all. His players loved him and still gather to meet
> each year to honor him. What he believed was that
>>> life's greatest moments come when you meet a challenge and over come it.
> That's what life is about. That is what it is to
>>> be human.  You've got to have the will to win, to be the best you can be.
> Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
>>> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First, you'll
> do more than you ever thought you could. Second,
>>> you'll find the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do
> succeed, it will be the greatest feeling you've ever had.
>>> So when I went blind, I decided I was going to be the best damn blind guy
> I could be. I learned braille, tried to learn to
>>> play the violin, got a guide dog, and got back into running and swimming.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life
>>> is so hard."  Instead the response is , "Well, what are you going to do
> about it?" You don't seek out adversity but when
>>> it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is
>>> that it is easily morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for
> losers. You can't live Lombardi's philosophy and be
>>> satisfied -- well ever really since perfection is impossible to obtain.
> You can always get better. But not everybody has the
>>> same strengths and not everyone can win.  And no one has any right to
> tell anyone else how to live their lives.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I
>>> would say, though, that Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of
> the NFB in that it gives you a sort of method for
>>> carrying it out. The idea of never settling for anything short of success
> is implied in the NFB philosophy but not spelled
>>> out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB philosophy would have been that
> the most important thing in life for a blind
>>> person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.  You may never
> get there but the most important thing is to
>>> never be satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming.  I think the best I
> would at
>>>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles!  Good for you in wanting to be a
> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>>>> like to hear about it.  I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
> keep
>>>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and
> on the way
>>>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do
> is to swim
>>>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane
> divider on every
>>>>>>>>>> stroke.  That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
> After
>>>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone?  Why?  Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh?  Do you ever have to share a lane? If
> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
> Here
>>>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and
> they set
>>>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only
> means one
>>>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to
> enter a
>>>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player.  I do wish
> it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter.  With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is
> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service.  You might wonder why a computer nerd
> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I
> guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put
> it on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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