[nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Tue Jul 20 03:11:28 UTC 2010
Actually, I've known plenty of sighted persons who put on one shoe differing
in color from the other.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: <ckrugman at sbcglobal.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
> >From a standpoint of healthy development we need to be able to laugh at
> ourselves and for those of us who are blind that would include blindness
> issues. Over the years there have been a couple of days when I went out
> wearing one black shoe and one brown shoe as the pairs of shoes were
> iedentical. I don't think this had a major impact on the world view of
> blindness. On one of these occasions it was mid-afternoon before my
> secretary noticed it. Perhaps we can convey a healthier attitude toward
> blindness by lightening up a little bit. Having been born blind I decided
> that I could stop going out of my way to prove my capabilities many years
> ago.
> chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 5:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> You might be pleasantly surprised to find that you and I agree on this
>> matter more than you might at first suppose. The issues you bring up are
>> points that are well taken. IN fact, I'll add to your points by giving
>> yet another example. Remember "Good and Evil"? I do. did I think that
>> show was funny? Hell no!!! I thought it was exactly the worst thing to
>> come along in years. IN fact, I'd say it was way worse even than the
>> commercial you sighted in your message. Still, while your points are
>> well taken, I maintian that I still have a fairly good case. For
>> example, let's say I am in a hurry to get to the laundry mat and in my
>> haste, I grab a box of Pancake mix rather than detergent. Yes, that
>> actually happened to me. I put the powder in to the machine and put my
>> clothes in. The attendant came over and then said to me, "Uh, excuse me
>> sir; uh, do you know you put Pancake mix in your clothes?". You can
>> imagine how embarrassed I was. Now, let's look at that episode. ON the
>> one hand, one hand, one could argue the point that this incident would
>> make the attendant think that blind people cannot tell between laundry
>> detergent and pancake mix. He might, therefore, have a view of blindness
>> that is colored by that happening. Therefore, by allowing that bit of
>> carelessness to occurr, one could say that i betrayed the cause and set
>> us bakc many years. At this point, some might perhaps call me a trator
>> to the movement because of this. In my first days in the outfit, I too
>> might have said as much. On the other hand, one could argue that the
>> story is funny for its own sake. The laundry mat attendant could easily
>> have his view of blindness corrected by others, (many others) who would
>> not make that mistake. So, let me stop here and ask one simple question.
>> What says the list to that?
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>> E-Mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:43 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Ray:
>>>
>>> In any discussion such as this, it's damnably dangerous to generalize
>>> because almost universally, there are exceptions to any rule. But with
>>> respect to humor regarding aspects of blindness, I think we must ask
>>> ourselves *why* we (or our sighted coleagues) find any particular
>>> blindness-related incident funny. Let me give you an example.
>>>
>>> Many years ago, I remember a commercial for a particular optical company
>>> touting the need to wear good glasses (this was before lasic) by using a
>>> skit whereby a mom's kids on a camping trip with her stole her glasses
>>> and laughed themselves silly when she got up in the morning over how
>>> ridiculous she looked stumbling about and doing awkward things because
>>> she couldn't see.
>>>
>>> That commercial burned my posterior because it was pure cruelty for the
>>> kids to laugh about something the mom couldn't help because she wasn't
>>> trained as a blind person and had I been her, I'd have tanned their
>>> hides. This sort of thing is the reason I find almost all slapstick
>>> comedy unappealing. It's basically cruelty in another guise. And if (as
>>> in Mr. Magoo) it gives the impression that all vision-impaired persons
>>> are like that, it sets us back immeasurably.
>>>
>>> But something like forgetting to turn a coffee cup over when getting it
>>> out of the cupboard and absent-mindedly pouring coffee all over the
>>> counter as a result -- that's just plain funny because I knew better and
>>> had my head in the clouds rather than paying attention to what I was
>>> doing as I should have.
>>>
>>> You see what I'm driving at? Do we laugh over our blindness because it's
>>> funny or because we are laughing at what we take to be our misfortune.
>>>
>>> What we in NFB bridle at our two assumptions: (a) that others (including
>>> ourselves) assume that we need help when we may not and (b) that we may
>>> falsely assume that we can't do something so elect not to try. Every one
>>> of us (including those of us who are sighted) use help when we need it
>>> and/or when it's convenient for us and others. Where this gets us into
>>> trouble is when we ask for help so often that people don't think we can
>>> do without it.
>>>
>>> But basically, it all comes down to how we view ourselves mediated by
>>> our view of blindness.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr" <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ah, well, you see John, here's the thing. As I see it, I don't think
>>>> that the NFB philosophy is looking to diminish blindness itself;
>>>> rather, as I understand it, the NFB is trying to make blindness itself
>>>> a mere nucence according to the perceptions of both the sighted and
>>>> blind alike. We tend to see ourselves as others see us. That includes
>>>> the blind as well. It's a fact of human nature that when you've got a
>>>> cause to fight, and the need for help from others seems to fly in the
>>>> face of any forward movement in that cause, there tends to be at least
>>>> a little personal or professional embarrassment at the idea of needing
>>>> help; especially when that need for help and the taking of it, (how
>>>> ever badly needed) would even appear to set back the cause for which
>>>> one is fighting. I note the most recent issue of "The Braille Monitor"
>>>> for July 2010. The "Ask Mrs. Whsoit column is particularly worth
>>>> paying attention to. Why? Because in that column, one of the letter
>>>> writers indicate
>>>> d that they got the impression that the independent blind in the NFB
>>>> always would brag about how they could always find their way through
>>>> airports and never needed help; and therefore, that one was not a true
>>>> federationist if one either needed or accepted help regardless of how
>>>> much that help was actually needed. Barbara Pierce, in her answer,
>>>> indicated that she wondered whether she and the letter writer were
>>>> reading the same issues of "The Braille Monitor". Here, I think the
>>>> letter writer could have made a stronger case by actually sighting
>>>> issue and articles. If the truth of the matter be known, I too was
>>>> once under the same impression as the letter writer.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'll give you another. The subject of laughter. Once, on this
>>>> list, I made an attempt to explore this issue in depth but it didn't go
>>>> very far. I sighted what I believed at the time to be inconsistencies
>>>> in what some leaders in the federation were saying and human reality.
>>>> It's human to laugh at things which are truly funny; even things
>>>> blindness related. Some among the federation leadership, (barbara
>>>> Pierce for example) said things which I took to be the attitude that it
>>>> was not acceptable for a blind person to laugh at anything blindness
>>>> related; even if it was genuinely funny. But this philosophy, if you
>>>> live and breathe it literally, tends to deny human reality. What say
>>>> y'all?
>>>>
>>>> I'm just trying to poke at a few points here to see what we can go
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail:
>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>> Skype Name:
>>>> barefootedray
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 10:51 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ah! Actually, you bring up an exciting possibility that never occured
>>>>> to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I can't honestly say that I've been arguing that the NFB
>>>>> philosophy should be modified. The trouble is that I've always
>>>>> believed that an advocacy group cannot be effective when its own
>>>>> philosophy is that the problem it is organized around is fairly minor.
>>>>> Why bother working for change when blindness is a mere nuiscance
>>>>> anyway?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're probably saying, "That's not waht the NFB philosophy means."
>>>>> And I think it should be clear that I know that especially after my
>>>>> dissertation about how similar the NFB philosophy is to Lombardi's.
>>>>> The problem, as I see it, is that it is impossible to avoid having the
>>>>> philosophy to morph into something that blames the victim. It
>>>>> inevitably will lead to a situation where its a sin to ask for an
>>>>> accomodation, any accomodation. The only solution I see is to get rid
>>>>> of the philosophy all together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, that's the only solution I saw until now. Actually, I'm really
>>>>> excited about the idea you bring up. Can the philosophy be tweaked to
>>>>> address the problems I have seen? I'll admit I'm very skeptical. But
>>>>> it sure is worth some thought and/or discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I'd consider it a major victory if someone, anyone, would
>>>>> acknowledge the problem itself. How can the NFB be effective as an
>>>>> advocacy group when its own philosophy is that with proper training,
>>>>> blindness can be reduced to a mere nuiscance? If I were President of
>>>>> the NFB (scary thought, I know), I could go on for days about how
>>>>> those 2 ideas are not really contradictory. But as a practical matter,
>>>>> I just do not think they can work together. And you've got to admit
>>>>> that on the surface, they seem quite at odds.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>>> <rforetjr at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 9:34 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] philosophy taken to another level then?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay John, So, let me see if I understand you correctly. What some
>>>>>> of us have viewed as your attacks on the NFB philosophy are actually
>>>>>> not attacks at all; rather, they are attempts on your part to help
>>>>>> the NFB fulfill and perhaps even improve on its philosophy? I want
>>>>>> you to understand that I do not intend my question as an attack upon
>>>>>> you; but, instead, I truly want to see if this is where you are
>>>>>> going. Because, if so, I think we may have the beginnings of a rather
>>>>>> forward thinking discussion about a substantive way of moving forward
>>>>>> that if we advance it to the leadership of the NFB in exactly the
>>>>>> right way, we might perhaps gain ground not otherwise obtainable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 9:02 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm impressed with the number of swimmers on this list. Its a good
>>>>>>> sign, IMO. It says something about the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I may have given the impression that I disapprove of the NFB
>>>>>>> philosophy but nothing could be further from the truth. Its very
>>>>>>> close to my personal philosophy of life which is borrowed from Vince
>>>>>>> Lombardi.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A lot of people think Vince Lombardi was the mean old coach who
>>>>>>> would do anything to win. No, that was not what he was like at all.
>>>>>>> His players loved him and still gather to meet each year to honor
>>>>>>> him. What he believed was that life's greatest moments come when you
>>>>>>> meet a challenge and over come it. That's what life is about. That
>>>>>>> is what it is to be human. You've got to have the will to win, to
>>>>>>> be the best you can be. Strive for perfection, knowing you'll never
>>>>>>> obtain it but on the way there, you'll find three things. First,
>>>>>>> you'll do more than you ever thought you could. Second, you'll find
>>>>>>> the struggle itself can be fun. And third, , when you do succeed, it
>>>>>>> will be the greatest feeling you've ever had. So when I went blind,
>>>>>>> I decided I was going to be the best damn blind guy I could be. I
>>>>>>> learned braille, tried to learn to play the violin, got a guide dog,
>>>>>>> and got back into running and swimming.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The beauty of Lombardi's philosophy is that whenever you run into
>>>>>>> adversity, you don't say, "Oh, woe is me. Life is so hard." Instead
>>>>>>> the response is , "Well, what are you going to do about it?" You
>>>>>>> don't seek out adversity but when it comes, embrace it. Take it on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not to create controversy again but like the NFB philosophy, the
>>>>>>> problem with Vince Lombardi's philosophy is that it is easily
>>>>>>> morphed into a mentality of showing contempt for losers. You can't
>>>>>>> live Lombardi's philosophy and be satisfied -- well ever really
>>>>>>> since perfection is impossible to obtain. You can always get better.
>>>>>>> But not everybody has the same strengths and not everyone can win.
>>>>>>> And no one has any right to tell anyone else how to live their
>>>>>>> lives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anyway, I think you can see the simularity between Lombardi's
>>>>>>> philosophy of life and the NFB philosophy. I would say, though, that
>>>>>>> Lombardi's philosophy is a step beyond that of the NFB in that it
>>>>>>> gives you a sort of method for carrying it out. The idea of never
>>>>>>> settling for anything short of success is implied in the NFB
>>>>>>> philosophy but not spelled out. I think Lombardi's take on the NFB
>>>>>>> philosophy would have been that the most important thing in life for
>>>>>>> a blind person is striving to reduce blindness to a mere nuisance.
>>>>>>> You may never get there but the most important thing is to never be
>>>>>>> satisfied until it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Johnson"
>>>>>>> <stevencjohnson at centurytel.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 7:10 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is just cool that you are swimming. I think the best I
>>>>>>>> would at
>>>>>>>> my skill level is circles! Good for you in wanting to be a
>>>>>>>> tri-athelete!
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 11:25 AM
>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you swim laps and if you have a way to stay on your side of the
>>>>>>>> lane, I'd
>>>>>>>> like to hear about it. I believe most lap pools have the swimmers
>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>> right like on a road. You swim up the right side of the lane and on
>>>>>>>> the way
>>>>>>>> back you come down the other side. The best I've been able to do is
>>>>>>>> to swim
>>>>>>>> with my right arm flailing out so that i can touch the lane divider
>>>>>>>> on every
>>>>>>>> stroke. That doesn't really work very well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It isn't really very helpful to tell me my skills need to improve.
>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>> all, I already asked for tips on how to improve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 9:14 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] swimming (was: Bard(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A lane for yourself alone? Why? Is it your swimming skills that
>>>>>>>>> vastly need improvement; or, perhaps your blindness skills?
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E-Mail:
>>>>>>>>> rforetjr at comcast dot net
>>>>>>>>> Skype Name:
>>>>>>>>> barefootedray
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2010, at 9:04 AM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So you're a swimmer, huh? Do you ever have to share a lane? If
>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>> how do you do it? I have never managed to do that successfully.
>>>>>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>>>>> at the pool at the University of Wisconsin, I call ahead and they
>>>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>>> a lane aside for me so I can have it to myself. Its only a minor
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice because there are usually several lanes with only one
>>>>>>>>>> person in them. So when they reserve a lane for me, it only means
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> other person has to share a lane.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever done any open water swimming? I would like to enter
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> triathlon but I don't like swimming tethered to someone else. I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't get comfortable doing that. It effects my breathing and I
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> can't swim normally.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wm. Ritchhart"
>>>>>>>>>> <william.ritchhart at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 5:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the new digital talking book player. I do wish it
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> still smaller and lighter. With all my swimming gear, lunch,
>>>>>>>>>>> back-up cane and everything else I have in my gym bag; it is
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>> too heavy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Steve Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 8:22 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John, I have not tried one myself yet, so this is good to know.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:26 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Bard
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Man, I just got one of those new digital book players from the
>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service. You might wonder why a computer nerd
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> myself took so long to ask for one of those things. Well, I
>>>>>>>>>>> guess
>>>>>>>>>>> mostly the reason is that I have 2 tape players that I bought
>>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>> plus the one from NLS. So now I have to use the player from the
>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>> all of the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But holy cow, is this thing nice. I downloaded a book and put it
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> a USB thumb drive and was listening to a book amybe 3 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> getting started. And navigation within the book is very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your tax dollars at work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
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