[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Wed May 26 16:05:18 UTC 2010


Dewey, would you please take a step back and think about what you are 
saying.  Your friend needs that audible signal.  It is so valuable to him 
that he's willing to walk 10 blocks out of his way to use it. Who are you to 
tell him he can't have it?

Its possible your navigational skills are exemplary.  So maybe not everyone 
can be a  Dewey Bradley.  But you shouldn't have to be perfect to be 
represented by the NFB. The NFB has an obligation to represent those who do 
not have perfect mobility skills. In fact, the obligation of the NFB to 
those people is *greater* than it is to those who do have perfect mobility 
skills.

There is a ton of evidence out there on how audible walk signals make blind 
pedestrians safer. I have posted a couple of links to this information 
already. You claim that for you, they don't work. Well, I can't account for 
that. It seems strange to me but I have no desire to debate it because its 
not relevant. The fact remains that studies have shown that audible walk 
signals help blind people deal with difficult or dangerous crossings.  Some 
of the studies sited in the Access Board web site go back to the early 
1980s.

To me, this is a struggle for the soul of the NFB. Is the NFB going to 
represent everyone or do you have to be another Dewey Bradley for the NFB to 
represent your needs?  It was the same thing with accessible money. When I 
admitted that I occasionally find it necessary to stuff bills into my pocket 
I was told I just need better training. But the truth is that I am about as 
high functioning as it gets in the blind community. I am probably in the 
99th percentile in terms of my functionality as a blind person. If you doubt 
that, I'm willing to provide documentation in whatever form you like via 
private email. Its just  that I'm willing to admit I'm not perfect. And I 
feel the NFB has a responsibility to represent all blind people, even those 
who aren't perfect.

This is about whether facts and reason are going to rule the policies of the 
NFB or if personal whims are. Is NFB policy to be determined by the research 
into audible walk signals or by the unsubstantiated opinions of those who 
don't like them?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


> good point
> We have a talking crosswalk here on a college crosswalk.
> The blind person that I talked about in my post works for them, he knows 
> how to cross the street, but he will walk 10 blocks out of his way just to 
> use his talking crosswalk.
> I hate that stupid thing.
> The street is busy enough so it always has traffic.
> but when you hit the button, it will keep saying "whait, whait" Then when 
> it is time to cross, it will say in a really loud voice "walk light is on 
> to cross National"
> It will say it a few times, so if someone runns the light, you wont be 
> able to hear it.
> And its busy enough that when its time to go, you can hear the traffic 
> stop anyway.
> I've seen the lights that will just make a tone when the walk light comes 
> on, then will stop.
> now they are all right
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E]" <Terry.Powers at nih.gov>
> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> If we are not tought correct mobility skills then what does a blind 
>> person do when the power goes out.  You have to rely on your sences 
>> because when the power goes out then the signals will malfunction.  I am 
>> not saying they can not be helpful on some busy streets, but a blind 
>> person should not soley depend on the signal.  If a signal is used, it 
>> should be used in conjunction with your sences and your sences make the 
>> correct choice as to when to cross.  If you do not listen, you could walk 
>> right into the path of a turning car, just because the signal told you, 
>> to cross.
>>
>> Terry Powers
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dewey Bradley [mailto:dewey.bradley at att.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 8:45 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because when 
>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I want 
>> to be able to hear them.
>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able to 
>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>> from.
>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door, 
>> cross the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and 
>> much more.
>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do 
>> anything.
>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the bank 
>> by him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind 
>> people are stupid and helpless.
>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>> centers.
>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore about 
>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how to 
>> cross the street
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>
>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk 
>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. That 
>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>> dollars installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't 
>> believe that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more 
>> safely, you should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they 
>> will set you straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross 
>> streets more safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets 
>> more safely.
>>
>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping 
>> blind people cross streets more safely:
>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>
>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help blind 
>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It 
>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would not 
>> make blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are 
>> obligated to provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing 
>> protests against something that by all appearances would make blind 
>> pedestrians safer unless they have some compelling reason to believe it 
>> doesn't work.
>>
>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind 
>> pedestrians.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>> Do you need them?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>> signals:
>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>
>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>> needs
>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>> can
>> be.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida Association 
>> of
>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals
>>
>>
>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to a
>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for the
>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her to 
>> be a
>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the various
>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O & 
>> M
>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn how 
>> the
>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian signals
>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really 
>> believe
>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our roadways,
>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it is
>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>
>> Sherri
>>
>>
>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and Newsline(r) Coordinator
>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>
>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only for
>> now!"
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