[nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals

John G. Heim jheim at math.wisc.edu
Fri May 28 00:37:30 UTC 2010


I'm sorry. I'm a little unclear on which NFB policy or action you are 
disagreeing with here.   Can you explain exatly what the NFB has done that 
you don't like?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian signals


>I do not agree with everything the NFB does, but I do on this one.
> I have been saying it for years that they should try more to make transit 
> companies follow the ADA, I really don't think they care about that stuff.
> The people that run the NFB all have drivers and don't have to take the 
> bus or trains.
> They are big in Denver, but yet the transit company RTD does not comply 
> with the ADA.
> But what does the people that rate them do?  Name them the best transit 
> company year after year.
> So you can't say that everyone agrees with them all the time.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
> signals
>
>
>> Well, it doesn't really make sense to criticize me for not admitting I'm 
>> wrong when you have never done that either. Have you ever admitted you 
>> were wrong, TJC? In fact, I don't recall anyone on this list ever even 
>> admitting to the slightest truth to any criticism of the NFB.
>>
>> Is the NFB infallible? If you're going to criticize me for never saying 
>> anything good about the NFB (which isn't even true) its fair for me to 
>> ask you when you've ever done anything but praise the NFB.
>>
>> So lets here it, people... Is the NFB perfect? Is Dr. Maurer infallible 
>> like the Pope?Has the NFB made any significant mistakes over the past 10 
>> years? I'm not talking about minor stuff like saying they should have 
>> sued K-Mart instead of Target. Do you all agree 100% with all the 
>> policies of the NFB or not? If not, what things about the NFB do you 
>> think should be changed?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "T. Joseph Carter" <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>> signals
>>
>>
>>> Of course he wants to replace our values with his!  You and Dewey have 
>>> been sucked in, Jim. I support honest debate, but you might just as well 
>>> be trying to reason with a cantaloupe.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 04:09:48PM -0600, Jim Marks wrote:
>>>>Many of us share the belief and practice that we should set personal 
>>>>goals
>>>>for ourselves that stretch our actions and thoughts.  Aiming high works 
>>>>well
>>>>as a tool for improving ourselves.  The NFB helps this process out by 
>>>>the
>>>>power of collective action and philosophy.  Of course the NFB has 
>>>>values,
>>>>the kinds of values that help us break away from dysfunctional behaviors 
>>>>and
>>>>attitudes.  To do otherwise would be to permit ourselves and the NFB to 
>>>>aim
>>>>merely for mediocrity.  Ethically, the NFB must aim high so that all of 
>>>>us
>>>>up and down the continuum of functioning as a blind person can have a 
>>>>decent
>>>>chance at doing better in whatever it is we choose to do as individuals.
>>>>
>>>>John, I can't resist this.  On one hand, you say that the NFB should 
>>>>have no
>>>>values.  On the other, you say the NFB should speak for those who don't
>>>>share its values.  Putting the obvious contradiction aside, aren't you
>>>>really trying to replace one set of values for another?
>>>>
>>>>Also, even if you were to object to aiming high, which you say you do 
>>>>not,
>>>>can't you see that aiming high serves everyone who is blind no matter 
>>>>where
>>>>their abilities stand?  After all, none of us have arrived at a state of
>>>>total independence.  To break the chains that hold us back, we are all
>>>>learning and growing.  The NFB does more to help those who are stuck 
>>>>than
>>>>any other organization out there.  It's kind of the point behind the 
>>>>NFB.
>>>>If the NFB dumped its values, then it would stand for nothing and have 
>>>>no
>>>>reason to exist except to argue only for environmental access.  That 
>>>>would
>>>>be horribly dysfunctional since function is rooted on the combination of
>>>>environmental access and personal development.  We have to believe that 
>>>>it's
>>>>OK to be blind and that the alternate techniques of the blind are what 
>>>>sets
>>>>the blind free just as much as we believe that we have a right to access
>>>>information on equal footing with the rest of society.  We must work 
>>>>both
>>>>ends, and that's what the NFB does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----
>>>>Jim Marks
>>>>blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>On
>>>>Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:17 AM
>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>>signals
>>>>
>>>>Super Blind Guy is my term for the person the NFB wants you to be.  This 
>>>>is
>>>>the guy for whom blindness has become a mere nuisance.
>>>>
>>>>Its truely ironic that I am being criticized on this list for not being
>>>>Super Blind Guy. Earlier this month, I was thuroughly trashed on the 
>>>>acb-l
>>>>list for insisting that everyone should try to be Super Blind Guy. IMO, 
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>is the goal every blind person should set. But I don't think that should 
>>>>be
>>>>an official policy of the NFB because they have no right to tell people 
>>>>how
>>>>to be blind.
>>>>
>>>>Nobody has a right to tell anyone else how to deal with their 
>>>>disability. I
>>>>
>>>>happen to agree that with proper training blindness can be reduced to a 
>>>>mere
>>>>
>>>>nuisance. But I bristle at the NFB telling me that I should feel that 
>>>>way.
>>>>That's a personal value that nobody has a right to determine on my 
>>>>behalf.
>>>>I happen to agree with that value judgement but I would never tell 
>>>>anyone
>>>>that they have to share my values. I think they should share them but 
>>>>that
>>>>decision *must* be left up to the individual.
>>>>
>>>>The NFB has an ethical responsibility to represent those who do not 
>>>>share
>>>>its values.  In fact, the NFB should not even *have* values. The NFB is 
>>>>not
>>>>a church or a religious organization. It should not be dictating values.
>>>>That is inappropriate and unethical.
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Jim Marks" <blind.grizzly at gmail.com>
>>>>To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:48 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>>signals
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's OK to be blind.  And it's sure a lot more functional to develop 
>>>>> solid
>>>>> blindness skills.  Blind people can either fix our environments or we 
>>>>> can
>>>>> learn how to be good at being blind.  Most of us blend the two options 
>>>>> for
>>>>> the best effect.  APS give us information about our environment.  They
>>>>> don't
>>>>> affect the alternative techniques of blindness, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does this common sense approach have to do with blaming the 
>>>>> victim
>>>>> and
>>>>> being super blind?  Also, what does being super blind mean?  Aren't we
>>>>> talking about function here?  I thought the re-print of the speech was
>>>>> pretty good stuff.  When I read it, I thought that we are starting to 
>>>>> turn
>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> corner to a better understanding of APS.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Jim Marks
>>>>> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of John G. Heim
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 7:16 AM
>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>> My mobility skills are not at issue here. The fact is that not 
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> has
>>>>> perfect mobility skills and everyone can make a mistake. I've already
>>>>> posted
>>>>>
>>>>> a link to an article about the ways that audible walk signals help 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people deal with confusing and difficult situations.  Did you read 
>>>>> that
>>>>> article?
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, my mobility skills are just fine. But that's not the point. I
>>>>> have
>>>>> had access to some of the best mobility training in the world via the
>>>>> Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Guide dogs for the Blind. But not
>>>>> everyone has that access. And even if they do, everyone makes 
>>>>> mistakes.
>>>>> Audible walk signlas help blind people avoid mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. Blaming the blind person for 
>>>>> their
>>>>> problems is not a solution. But all too often, that is exactly what 
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB
>>>>> does.  Its a direct result of the NFB philosophy that blindness can be
>>>>> reduced to a mere nuiscance. Well, that may or may not even be true. 
>>>>> But
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> main problem with it is that it inevitably results in blaming the 
>>>>> victim.
>>>>> If
>>>>>
>>>>> you can't cross a street without audible walk signals, that's your
>>>>> problem.
>>>>> If you're not Super Blind Guy (or Gal), the NFB has no use for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 7:44 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you should get some travel training, I don't like them because 
>>>>> when
>>>>> the dam things are makeing all the raket, I can't hear the traffic.
>>>>> This is a fact of life, people don't always stop for a red light, I 
>>>>> want
>>>>> to
>>>>> be able to hear them.
>>>>> Maybe someone on the list can explain to you how blind people are able 
>>>>> to
>>>>> tell when the light is ready for you to cross.
>>>>> These things are where sighted people get there negative stereotypes 
>>>>> from.
>>>>> They think that we can't do anything for our selves, like open a door,
>>>>> cross
>>>>> the street, find a seat, carry our food, take care of our kids, and 
>>>>> much
>>>>> more.
>>>>> Its guys like you that hold us back.
>>>>> That's just one reason that they wont hire us, they think we can't do
>>>>> anything.
>>>>> I know someone else like you, he wont even go to the store or to the 
>>>>> bank
>>>>> by
>>>>> him self, and he knows how to, but wants everyone to know that blind
>>>>> people
>>>>> are stupid and helpless.
>>>>> Maybe you should get rehab to send you to one of the NFB training 
>>>>> centers.
>>>>> I whent to the Colorado center myself, they are good, I'm not shore 
>>>>> about
>>>>> the other 2, but I'm shore they are good as well.
>>>>> They can show you how to tell when the light changes, and when and how 
>>>>> to
>>>>> cross the street
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:57 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, of course I need audible walk signals.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you're not trying to imply that I shouldn't need audible walk
>>>>> signals. By that logic, visible walk signals are also unnecessary. 
>>>>> That
>>>>> would imply that cities all over the globe have wasted millions of 
>>>>> dollars
>>>>> installing visible walk signals for sighted people.  If you don't 
>>>>> believe
>>>>> that visible walk signals help sighted people cross streets more 
>>>>> safely,
>>>>> you
>>>>> should contact the traffic engineers in your city and they will set 
>>>>> you
>>>>> straight. Just as visible signals help sighted people cross streets 
>>>>> more
>>>>> safely, audible signals help blind pedestrians cross streets more 
>>>>> safely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is a link to some information about audible walk signals helping
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people cross streets more safely:
>>>>> http://www.apsguide.org/appendix_c_research.cfm
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have any reason to believe that audible signals do not help 
>>>>> blind
>>>>> pedestrians cross the street more safely, I would like to see it.  It
>>>>> certainly seems counter-intuitive to say that audible signals would 
>>>>> not
>>>>> make
>>>>> blind pedestrians safer. If you're going to say that, you are 
>>>>> obligated to
>>>>> provide some evidence.  The NFB should not be organizing protests 
>>>>> against
>>>>> something that by all appearances would make blind pedestrians safer
>>>>> unless
>>>>> they have some compelling reason to believe it doesn't work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise, the NFB should stop playing games with the lives of blind
>>>>> pedestrians.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dewey Bradley" <dewey.bradley at att.net>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think the NFB  should change its stance?
>>>>> Do you need them?
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at math.wisc.edu>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:51 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As recently as 2003, the NFB organized protests against audible  walk
>>>>> signals:
>>>>> http://nfb.org/legacy/bm/bm03/bm0301/bm030103.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I feel there is no more important issue on which the NFB 
>>>>> needs
>>>>> to change its stance. This is about as wrong-headed as an organization 
>>>>> can
>>>>> be.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>; "Florida 
>>>>> Association of
>>>>> Guide Dog Users" <flagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; "NFB Florida"
>>>>> <nfbf-l at nfbnet.org>; "NFB of Florida parents" <fopbc at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: "Dianne Ketts" <dianne at ketts.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:20 AM
>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Explanation of traffic lights and pedestrian 
>>>>> signals
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The FCB is streaming their convention and I am currently listening to 
>>>>> a
>>>>> speech by an O & M instructor, Dianne Ketts, who happens to work for 
>>>>> the
>>>>> Lighthouse of Central Florida. I know Dianne personally and find her 
>>>>> to be
>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> very progressive-thinking O & M instructor. She is explaining the 
>>>>> various
>>>>> kinds of Pedestrian signals, traffic lights and the use of audible
>>>>> pedestrian signals. She particularly emphasizes that you need proper O 
>>>>> & M
>>>>> techniques and training whether or not the audible indications exists,
>>>>> saying that the audible signal only indicates that the walk signal is
>>>>> showing, not that it is safe to cross the street. I find her outlook
>>>>> refreshing and the lecture fascinating.  It is interesting to learn 
>>>>> how
>>>>> the
>>>>> various lights are actuated as well as how the audible pedestrian 
>>>>> signals
>>>>> work. I think it would be of great use to have an explanation of these
>>>>> various signals and the technology regarding APS'S AT A FUTURE NFBF
>>>>> CONVENTION AND EVEN POSSIBLY AT AN NFB national convention. I really
>>>>> believe
>>>>> with traffic patterns changing, with more and more cars on our 
>>>>> roadways,
>>>>> this information is useful for us to know. She says, for example, that
>>>>> whether there is an APS or not, there are some intersections where it 
>>>>> is
>>>>> imperative for people to find the push-button. Really interesting!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sherri
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sherri Brun, NFBF Secretary and NewslineR Coordinator
>>>>> E-mail:  flmom2006 at gmail.com
>>>>> http://www.nfbnewslineonline.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbflorida.org
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don't give up something you want forever for something you want only 
>>>>> for
>>>>> now!"
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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