[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Wed Apr 13 16:37:46 UTC 2011

Peter,

You are right about the deaf-blind being left out by the audio CAPTCHA option.  In general, though, think about what you are saying.  If a screen reader can 
recognize a CAPTCHA, so can a hacker.  I just don't see any clear way around that fact.  The problem is that we are facing some very bright programmers 
who are writing viruses, hacking and otherwise making nuisances of themselves, we're not dealing with casual hobbyists.  It is almost certain that some of 
them are more intelligent and accomplished than those developing our screen readers even if they are also criminals in some cases.  This doesn't mean I 
think nothing should be done, only that it is much easier to say there is a solution but a lot harder to come up with one.  There are solutions such as 
automatically calling you, for example, that adds a level of inconvenience to us, and even that leaves out the deafblind.  You could include them by 
requiring that a CAPTCHA solution be sent via TDD, but then it is in a digital form that could be captured once a hacker thought of that approach.  Part of 
the challenge of finding a solution is that we don't completely understand what we're up against.  Many hackers and spammers are very smart.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:04:56 -0500, Peter Donahue wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>    Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we can 
>develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the wheel 
>of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a way 
>to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting Web 
>sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do this 
>is not there doesn't wash with me.

>Peter Donahue

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

>John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>are inaccessible.
>My organization's Website is like that.
>They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it won't 
>play.
>I'll post the Website here.
>www.upci.org
>I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about this.
>Blessings, Joshua

>On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to 
>> web
>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is responsible
>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the ADA
>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to court 
>> to
>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination. But
>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>
>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me
>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really
>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got 
>> her
>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with
>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point is
>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by blind
>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>
>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned what 
>> a
>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've pointed
>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference. 
>> All
>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there
>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to
>> every spammer I can find.
>>
>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>> problem is.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>
>>
>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>> not having any success.
>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and a
>>> Robot?
>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it to
>>> us.
>>> What can we do?
>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>> This is for all Websites.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
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>>
>>
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