[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Wed Apr 13 17:01:13 UTC 2011

Guys and gals:

Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss may be a decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect the blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom lines.  All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can sympathize with unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are inconvenienced or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work gets something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right) each *week* and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd guess its websites do also.

Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails us nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to cover them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies, I'd bet good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the religious exceptions to ADA requirements.

I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's also.  But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race between spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the ultimate answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers access will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta Airlines wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights where one answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against the learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray or other super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and brute-force its way to the solution.

My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves me out I don't need either.

I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund to sue every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing at least half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and patenting a CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by a majority of web developers.

Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:

> I also agree.
> So, what's the holdup?
> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site, (I've
> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
> Webmasters.
> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>> Peter,
>> 
>> I agree with you all the way!
>> 
>> 
>> Gloria Whipple
>> Corresponding Secretary
>> Inland Empire chapter
>> nfb of WA
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>> 
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>>    Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we can
>> 
>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the wheel
>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find a way
>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting Web
>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to do this
>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>> 
>> Peter Donahue
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>> 
>> 
>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church locater,
>> are inaccessible.
>> My organization's Website is like that.
>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it won't
>> play.
>> I'll post the Website here.
>> www.upci.org
>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about this.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>> 
>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA applies to
>>> web
>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is responsible
>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says the ADA
>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to court
>>> to
>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that determination. But
>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is that
>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>> 
>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to me
>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk really
>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only got
>>> her
>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up with
>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her point is
>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by blind
>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>> 
>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned what
>>> a
>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've pointed
>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no difference.
>>> All
>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting there
>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending it to
>>> every spammer I can find.
>>> 
>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very open
>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what the
>>> problem is.
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but I'm
>>>> not having any success.
>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws, and a
>>>> Robot?
>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read it to
>>>> us.
>>>> What can we do?
>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> 
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>> t
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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