[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Thu Apr 14 02:20:42 UTC 2011

If we're investigating spammers, it's something to consider.
I'm not starting a debate on illegal imigration, I'm just giving an
idea on who some of these people are.
Blessings, Joshua

On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Let's avoid that topic, shall we?
>
>
> Mike Freeman
> sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2011, at 16:02, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> That's another great idea!
>> Also, ship the illegals back!
>> I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the spammers are illegal imigrants.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to
>>> countries that harbor spammers!
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
>>>> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd appreciate
>>>> it.
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>> Guys and gals:
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss may be
>>>>> a
>>>>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect the
>>>>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom
>>>>> lines.
>>>>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can sympathize
>>>>> with
>>>>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are
>>>>> inconvenienced
>>>>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work
>>>>> gets
>>>>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right) each
>>>>> *week*
>>>>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd guess
>>>>> its
>>>>> websites do also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails us
>>>>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to
>>>>> cover
>>>>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies, I'd
>>>>> bet
>>>>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the religious
>>>>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's
>>>>> also.
>>>>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race between
>>>>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the
>>>>> ultimate
>>>>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers
>>>>> access
>>>>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta
>>>>> Airlines
>>>>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights where
>>>>> one
>>>>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against the
>>>>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray or
>>>>> other
>>>>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and brute-force
>>>>> its
>>>>> way to the solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves me
>>>>> out
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't need either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund to
>>>>> sue
>>>>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing at
>>>>> least
>>>>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and
>>>>> patenting a
>>>>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by a
>>>>> majority of web developers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester
>>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I also agree.
>>>>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>>>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site, (I've
>>>>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>>>>> Webmasters.
>>>>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>>>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>>>>>> nfb of WA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes if we
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind the
>>>>>>> wheel
>>>>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to find
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while protecting
>>>>>>> Web
>>>>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in a
>>>>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church
>>>>>>> locater,
>>>>>>> are inaccessible.
>>>>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>>>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but it
>>>>>>> won't
>>>>>>> play.
>>>>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>>>>>> www.upci.org
>>>>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing about
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA
>>>>>>>> applies
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice says
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go to
>>>>>>>> court
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that
>>>>>>>> determination.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss came to
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to talk
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I only
>>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came up
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her
>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often by
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even mentioned
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software. I've
>>>>>>>> pointed
>>>>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no
>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>> All
>>>>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was sitting
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and sending
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is very
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> problem is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list, but
>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> not having any success.
>>>>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to make
>>>>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between Jaws,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> Robot?
>>>>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and read
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> us.
>>>>>>>>> What can we do?
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40johnheim.ne
>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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