[nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)

Thu Apr 14 14:08:15 UTC 2011

Joshua,

As you have already heard, a refreshable braille display will not help you with CAPTCHAs.  I think it is fair to say that many of us are not completely certain 
the best way to go on this.  One thing that would be helpful is if someone could suggest a good resource for generating audio CAPTCHAs that we could 
suggest to web sites.  Perhaps this information is commonly available, I have not really investigated, but having something specific to suggest might help.  
Maybe Pete Donnahue has specifics as to what might be done without CAPTCHAs as he had indicated, but of course we're not going to get a web 
developer to change their entire development approach to incorporate something.  Giving something specific to pass on to your church site might help, 
though.

Joshua, there are really two types of situations where we encounter CAPTCHAs.  There is the CAPTCHA that we encounter once such as when setting up 
a GMAIL account and there are those that we have to solve every time we enter a particular site.  While I believe that we need to push for a better solution, 
Mike's point is well taken that sometimes getting someone to help with a one-time CAPTCHA makes more sense than letting the CAPTCHA stop you from 
what you are doing.  This doesn't mean that we should assume this is good enough, but we also shouldn't let things like this stop us in our tracks.  
Sometimes printing out the page with the CAPTCHA and bringing it to someone makes it easier to get help.  Obviously, you can't print out a CAPTCHA and 
then use it later because it changes, but bringing to someone rather than expecting them to drop what they are doing and coming to your computer might 
help.  Prioritizing your requests for help to deal with the one-time CAPTCHA with your family might make them feel more inclined to help you, and then 
concentrate on getting the recurring CAPTCHAs changed.  Perhaps if you are a member of the church whose site you are dealing with, you could get an ID 
an password that would let you get around the CAPTCHA.  

It is a pain that we have to encounter CAPTCHAs because of spammers, we're all frustrated with that.  Thinking that we can eliminate them is just not a 
practical use of time.  It has to be done on a broader scale, and frankly it is, in my opinion, like thinking we can eliminate all criminal activity so we don't have 
to lock our doors.  It would be nice but it just isn't going to happen.  We have to deal with the world as it is even while we might work for a better world.

Best reagards,

Steve Jacobson

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:32:34 -0500, Joshua Lester wrote:

>I have a question for those of you, that serf the Web, using note takers.
>Will the refreshable Braille displays let you read captcha?
>I'm just wondering.
>I think, the only solution for my problem, will be to purchase a
>refreshabel Braille display.
>None of the sighted members of my family will help me.
>They have lives, to.
>Thanks for your help.
>Blessings, Joshua

>On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> Joshua:
>>
>> There *is* a way to solve the problem.  But you're not going to like it.
>>
>> Drum-roll, please!  **Use a sighted reader!!!!!!**  Told ya you wouldn't
>> like it!  But it works every time.  I know it's inconvenient and not always
>> practical.  But don't you remember?  We never said blindness was *not* a
>> physical nuisance; we only said that it could be reduced to a physical
>> nuisance.
>>
>> In other words, I do not believe the problem is solvable as long as we use
>> machines for our information access.  If we can use them, so can the
>> spammers.
>>
>> Relax and enjoy the ride!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:12 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>
>> We need to do something about them.
>> It's because of them, that we can't access many Websites.
>> All I want, is for there to be a way where we can deal with this captcha.
>> How can we solve this problem?
>> That's my main objective with this thread.
>> We need to invent another alternative, and try to get it accepted.
>> Any computer whizzes, out there?
>> Let's work on the software.
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 4/13/11, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Joshua and others, discussion of CAPTCHA's and how they impact the
>>> blind is on topic for this list, but discussion of punishment for
>>> spammers, immigrants etc., is not.  Further, many of the spammers are
>>> from the good old U.S. of A.  Where are you going to send them?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 09:20 PM 4/13/2011, you wrote:
>>>>If we're investigating spammers, it's something to consider.
>>>>I'm not starting a debate on illegal imigration, I'm just giving an
>>>>idea on who some of these people are.
>>>>Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>>On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> > Let's avoid that topic, shall we?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Mike Freeman
>>>> > sent from my iPhone
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Apr 13, 2011, at 16:02, Joshua Lester
>>>> > <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> That's another great idea!
>>>> >> Also, ship the illegals back!
>>>> >> I wouldn't be surprised, if some of the spammers are illegal
>> imigrants.
>>>> >> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> Actually what I favor is a different approach:  deny foreign aid to
>>>> >>> countries that harbor spammers!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Mike Freeman
>>>> >>> sent from my iPhone
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 14:16, Joshua Lester
>>>> >>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Mr. Freeman, let's try to invent a new alternative.
>>>> >>>> I'm not a computer genius, but if someone can do this, I'd
>> appreciate
>>>> >>>> it.
>>>> >>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 4/13/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Guys and gals:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Let's get real here.  John Heim is absolutely correct:  his boss
>> may
>>>> >>>>> be
>>>> >>>>> a
>>>> >>>>> decent person.  But she doesn't care a farthing how CAPTCHAs affect
>>>> >>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> blind.  There aren't enough of us to truly affect offenders' bottom
>>>> >>>>> lines.
>>>> >>>>> All webmasters want is to stop spam (something all of us can
>>>> >>>>> sympathize
>>>> >>>>> with
>>>> >>>>> unless we are the spammers!).  If a few thousand people are
>>>> >>>>> inconvenienced
>>>> >>>>> or shut out of sites, so what?  The Federal agency for which I work
>>>> >>>>> gets
>>>> >>>>> something like fifty thousand spam emails (yes, you heard right)
>>>> >>>>> each
>>>> >>>>> *week*
>>>> >>>>> and this wastes a heck of a lot of resources and bandwidth.  I'd
>>>> >>>>> guess
>>>> >>>>> its
>>>> >>>>> websites do also.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Fulminating and venting one's spleen in irrational outbursts avails
>>>> >>>>> us
>>>> >>>>> nothing.  Neither does writing to webmasters; we'd never be able to
>>>> >>>>> cover
>>>> >>>>> them all.  Even if we can get courts to rule that the ADA applies,
>>>> >>>>> I'd
>>>> >>>>> bet
>>>> >>>>> good money that Joshua's nemesis site would fall under the
>> religious
>>>> >>>>> exceptions to ADA requirements.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I sympathize with everyone's indignation; I am stymied by CAPTCHA's
>>>> >>>>> also.
>>>> >>>>> But I'm realistic enough to realize that it's an ongoing race
>>>> >>>>> between
>>>> >>>>> spammers/hackers and web developers.  CAPTCHAs certainly aren't the
>>>> >>>>> ultimate
>>>> >>>>> answer but, I submit, any solution that would allow screen-readers
>>>> >>>>> access
>>>> >>>>> will also allow spammers/hackers access.  And yes, I've used Delta
>>>> >>>>> Airlines
>>>> >>>>> wonderful alternative to the CAPTCHA available on their flights
>>>> >>>>> where
>>>> >>>>> one
>>>> >>>>> answers a math question.  But does this not discriminate against
>> the
>>>> >>>>> learning-disabled?  And I could envision a spammer employing a Cray
>>>> >>>>> or
>>>> >>>>> other
>>>> >>>>> super-machine to simply sort through possible answers and
>>>> >>>>> brute-force
>>>> >>>>> its
>>>> >>>>> way to the solution.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> My psychological defense is to figure that any website that leaves
>>>> >>>>> me
>>>> >>>>> out
>>>> >>>>> I
>>>> >>>>> don't need either.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I can see only two solutions:  build up a billion-dollar legal fund
>>>> >>>>> to
>>>> >>>>> sue
>>>> >>>>> every web developer or website owner (and we must figure on losing
>>>> >>>>> at
>>>> >>>>> least
>>>> >>>>> half the suits) or getting down to brass tacks and inventing and
>>>> >>>>> patenting a
>>>> >>>>> CAPTCHA alternative that appears convincing enough to be adopted by
>>>> >>>>> a
>>>> >>>>> majority of web developers.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> >>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Apr 13, 2011, at 9:26, Joshua Lester
>>>> >>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I also agree.
>>>> >>>>>> So, what's the holdup?
>>>> >>>>>> Let's get the sighted people on this list to visit every site,
>>>> >>>>>> (I've
>>>> >>>>>> mentioned the sites on the Music Talk list,) and contact the
>>>> >>>>>> Webmasters.
>>>> >>>>>> Some of us can't contact them, because of the captcha.
>>>> >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 4/13/11, Gloria Whipple <ladygloria at webband.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> Peter,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with you all the way!
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>> >>>>>>> Corresponding Secretary
>>>> >>>>>>> Inland Empire chapter
>>>> >>>>>>> nfb of WA
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> >>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> >>>>>>> On
>>>> >>>>>>> Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:05
>>>> >>>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>  Audio captchas are of no use to the deaf-blind . For God sakes
>> if
>>>> >>>>>>> we
>>>> >>>>>>> can
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> develop the technology that allowed us to put a blind guy behind
>>>> >>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>> wheel
>>>> >>>>>>> of an automobile and drive it independently we should be able to
>>>> >>>>>>> find
>>>> >>>>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>>> way
>>>> >>>>>>> to allow captchas to be recognized by screen readers while
>>>> >>>>>>> protecting
>>>> >>>>>>> Web
>>>> >>>>>>> sites and such from the bad guys. The belief that the technology
>>>> >>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>> do
>>>> >>>>>>> this
>>>> >>>>>>> is not there doesn't wash with me.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> >>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:38 AM
>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> John, what's really bad, is if there are multiple blind people in
>>>> >>>>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>>> church denomination, and their site's contact form, or church
>>>> >>>>>>> locater,
>>>> >>>>>>> are inaccessible.
>>>> >>>>>>> My organization's Website is like that.
>>>> >>>>>>> They have an audio file that's supposed to play the captcha, but
>>>> >>>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>>> won't
>>>> >>>>>>> play.
>>>> >>>>>>> I'll post the Website here.
>>>> >>>>>>> www.upci.org
>>>> >>>>>>> I've contacted their IT department, but they have done nothing
>>>> >>>>>>> about
>>>> >>>>>>> this.
>>>> >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 4/13/11, John Heim <john at johnheim.net> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> A few months ago, the Department of Justice said that the ADA
>>>> >>>>>>>> applies
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> web
>>>> >>>>>>>> sites. This is a big deal. Since the Department of Justice is
>>>> >>>>>>>> responsible
>>>> >>>>>>>> for enforcing laws like the ADA, if the Department of Justice
>>>> >>>>>>>> says
>>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>>> ADA
>>>> >>>>>>>> applies to web sites, then it does.  A business would have to go
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> court
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> show that the DOJ overstepped its bounds in making that
>>>> >>>>>>>> determination.
>>>> >>>>>>>> But
>>>> >>>>>>>> the burden of proof would be on them. Well, anyway, the point is
>>>> >>>>>>>> that
>>>> >>>>>>>> CAPTCHAs are now illegal.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> IMO, this is one of the toughest issues we face. My own boss
>> came
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> me
>>>> >>>>>>>> yesterday wanting to put a captcha on our web site. I had to
>> talk
>>>> >>>>>>>> really
>>>> >>>>>>>> long to get her to not do it. It was a really tough sell and I
>>>> >>>>>>>> only
>>>> >>>>>>>> got
>>>> >>>>>>>> her
>>>> >>>>>>>> to agree on a provisional basis. If an alternate solution I came
>>>> >>>>>>>> up
>>>> >>>>>>>> with
>>>> >>>>>>>> doesn't work, she will probably insist on using the captcha. Her
>>>> >>>>>>>> point
>>>> >>>>>>>> is
>>>> >>>>>>>> that the page we want to protect simply isn't visited very often
>>>> >>>>>>>> by
>>>> >>>>>>>> blind
>>>> >>>>>>>> people. Its not worth the trouble to make it accessible.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> I've pointed out that its a matter of principle. I've even
>>>> >>>>>>>> mentioned
>>>> >>>>>>>> what
>>>> >>>>>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>>>> bitter thing it would be for me to install captcha software.
>> I've
>>>> >>>>>>>> pointed
>>>> >>>>>>>> out our legal responsibilities. All this makes little to no
>>>> >>>>>>>> difference.
>>>> >>>>>>>> All
>>>> >>>>>>>> that really matters is that captchas work. Honestly, I was
>>>> >>>>>>>> sitting
>>>> >>>>>>>> there
>>>> >>>>>>>> thinking of trying to write software to break captchas and
>>>> >>>>>>>> sending
>>>> >>>>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>> every spammer I can find.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> By the way, my boss is not a bad person by any means. She is
>> very
>>>> >>>>>>>> open
>>>> >>>>>>>> minded. I just think that if you're not blind, you don't see
>> what
>>>> >>>>>>>> the
>>>> >>>>>>>> problem is.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> >>>>>>>> To: <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:25 PM
>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Captcha, (I've had enough!)
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've posted this on the Faith Talk list, and the Music list,
>> but
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>> >>>>>>>>> not having any success.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've just thought of a question.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd like everyone's feedback.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> How can we better influence the Webmasters of their sites, to
>>>> >>>>>>>>> make
>>>> >>>>>>>>> more accessible contact forms?
>>>> >>>>>>>>> How can they make them, where they can differentiate, between
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jaws,
>>>> >>>>>>>>> and
>>>> >>>>>>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Robot?
>>>> >>>>>>>>> I want them to make the captcha, where Jaws can catch it, and
>>>> >>>>>>>>> read
>>>> >>>>>>>>> it
>>>> >>>>>>>>> to
>>>> >>>>>>>>> us.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> What can we do?
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for your ideas.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is for all Websites.
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfb-talk mailing list
>>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfb-talk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40stud
>> ents.pccua.edu
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfb-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfb-talk mailing list
>> nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfb-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>

>_______________________________________________
>nfb-talk mailing list
>nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfb-talk:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-talk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com