[nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discriminationin Orlando
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Wed Jul 13 22:37:30 UTC 2011
Steve, great advice. You have to file a complaint quickly and thouroughly
with out the emotion.
Also, state any staff whom you dealt with. Joeseph, do you have the
officers's names?
Good luck.
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:01 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discriminationin
Orlando
If anything good is to come out of this, this must all be thought through
carefully. I think the first thing to do is to find out where and how to
lodge a complaint. The second thing is to think through the whole situation
and figure out which part of what happened can be clearly proven. It is
very
likely that it will be a lot of Joe's word against their word here. For
example, we do not think that the metal detector went off. Are we sure,
though, and can
we prove it? Do they always make a sound? Can Joe say for certain that he
didn't hear it going off given his state by then? If they claim that the
metal
detector went off, then their pat-down is going to be seen as justifiable.
Whether Joe should have been taken behind a screen is then a separate matter
and I don't know what sort of regulations there are.
Joe, I understand your frustration when people miss the point completely,
but you seem to require that we are 100% cheerleaders or we are against you.
You don't need cheerleaders, you need people to ask challenging questions
now so you have the answers later. You also need to take into account the
fact that some people take vacations after conventions, and your case
doesn't have a one week statute of limitations. If you have not done so, you
should
carefully write down your experience with as much of the details as you can
remember. Your post here is a pretty good start, but try to get past the
anger
and relate events as objectively as you can. Identify the staff with whom
you interacted as much as you can. Someone said you should avoid that
airline,
but I don't think the people you dealt with were likely airline personnel,
but it may not be clear to whom they are responsible. If you are wrong
about the
metal detector not going off or even if they claim you are wrong, it puts a
lot of doubt on your case since what they did after would no longer be
punitive but
procedure. Was there anyone with you who would be in a good position to
back up your position that you did not set off the metal detector? Even if
it is
your word against theirs, it is still worth filing a complaint. Even if
they claim that, for example, the metal detector went off and they were then
following
procedure, your complaint at least shows that they did not communicate with
you well which is still wrong. Over the years we hve helped a number of
people with complaints here in Minnesota, and it just isn't always the case
that the first line of defense is waiting for the national office to get
back to you.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:41:18 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>Joseph, I am not looking to contradict what you are saying; but, frankly, I
>wonder something. did you attempt to telephone Scot Labarre? did you
>attempt
to telephone Dr. Maurer? I myself have successfully reached him a time or
two when I needed to. I understand your anger; and, believe me, I am not
trying
to say that what happened to you was right. Neither, for that matter, is
anybody else. I fail to understand how you were attacked by any leader of
the
federation on this list. I plead with you not to let the present anger you
feel cause you to believe the entire federation is against you. Quite
naturally, you
wish an emidiate response; and, I'm sure we all would like the same thing.
But, sometimes, a phone call is much faster than e-mail. May I respectfully
suggest that you might get better results if you telephoned the national
center:
>410-659-9314
>and got Dr. Maurer on the phone? It can be done. I hope you do not hold
>the view that just because I'm defending the list to the extent I am, that
>I'm
against you. Doubtless, that is hard to see now because of the emotional
closeness of your situation. Try the phone. I suspect that you will get
faster
results. Hypothetically, let's say you got hold of Dr. Maurer this very
day. Let's say he agreed to take the case. Do you seriously imagine that
we could haul
the TSA in court and make them pay up on your behalf tomorrow? Not
possible. I know you want a resolution of this matter right now; but, to
speak
frankly, you're not going to get it by just sending one or two e-mails and
then waiting letting your anger increase until you think the entire
federation is against
you just because you happened to read the personal opinions of perhaps one
or two federation leaders who may or may not agree with you. Please keep
this in mind. Those were their personal opinions only; NOT, mind you, the
actual official positions of the organization. Perhaps, before you type
your reply to
this, perhaps you should pick up the phone and contact Scott Labarre and Dr.
Maurer. You may have to leave messages for them; but, they've got a lot to
do. Still, at least give it a try. I'm trying to be constructive with
regard to your situation. It's not that I do not believe you, I do. IF I
were in your situation and
you in mine, I'd expect you to tell me the same thing. Don't let your anger
blot out your reason.
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>Skype name:
>barefootedray
>Facebook:
>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:15 AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>> Ray, my email to Scott LaBarre has gone completely unanswered and, so far
>> as I can tell, completely ignored.
>>
>> And for the ten thousandth time: I WAS NOT OFFERED THE CHOICE of walking
>> alone through the metal detector.
>>
>> The leaders of the Federation who purport to represent it should not be
>> so quick to attack the membership if they dont want their opinions to be
>> taken as
the organizations position. I have their opinions and no other response.
What am I to think?
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 08:21:12AM -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>> Until now, I have deliberately stayed out of this thread. I wanted to
>>> see if cooler heads would prevail. What seems to have happened is this.
>>> Joseph, I
wanted to say this to you openly on the list because I want it thoroughly
understood where I'm coming from. On the face of it, it would appear, based
on
your story, that your rights as a blind person, (and a federationist also),
were violated. Clearly, and without doubt, your rights were indeed
violated. There is
no debate about that; and, it seems to me that everybody on the list pretty
much agrees with you on that; and, perhaps, to that extent, shares your own
outrage. The debate, it seems to me, is this. Should this be a matter for
the federation. Clearly, in your opinion, the answer seems to be and ought
to be
"yes". However, there are some on this list, (a federation leader or two
among them), who hold the view that, though much wrong was done you, it is
not
necessarily a federation matter. At this point, perhaps in the impulsive
heat and freshness of your anger, you then attribute the contrary opinion to
yours on
this list upon the part of some as being the "official" position of the
National Federation of the Blind merely because such contrary opinion has
been
expressed by one or more federation leaders. Therefore, in your anger,
(refreshed by such contrary opinions), you now view the federation as being
against
you; and, you feel that most everyone on this list is against you.
Doubtless, in your pain and anger, you say to yourself, "IF a federation
leader is going to
speak against me, then, surely, this represents the official opinion of the
federation; and, therefore, it's useless to officially ask the federation
for help
because a leader has spoken against me and his position is the official
position of the federation. IF this is the case, blast the whole thing!
I'm going on my
own and blast what the Federation says!".
>>>
>>> Joseph, let me remind you of something. The National Federation has
>>> NOT, (I repeat and emphasize NOT), taken an "official" position against
your case or even for it. Let us all recall this. The only thing which has
happened here is that You, Joseph, put to us your experiences at the
airport,
(which, it should go without saying), were very bad and frankly
unnecessary. Some discussion was had about the matter. Some federation
leaders who
just happened to be on this list contributed their personal opinions
regarding this. However, it's just as important to remember what DID, NOT,
HAPPEN.
The National Federation of the Blind did NOT formally refuse to aid you.
The organization did not do so.
>>>
>>> Now, the last of my remarks are directed to the rest of us. There is no
>>> doubt, in my mind at least, that most of us here feel that Joseph was
wronged. We're all with him on that. Some of us posit that he should have
been allowed to keep his cane; while, others of us, myself included, feel
that he
could have done without it for the very short walk through what is
essentially a straight line. So, who is right and who is wrong? I posit
that this is a matter
we each need to determine for ourselves. Some of us will feel one way, some
of us another. This is an extremely delicate balancing act which, if we are
all
honest with ourselves, we will never get right all of the time. Perhaps, as
a matter of course, Joseph should seek official help from the federation if
he feels
that there is a compelling necessity to obtain it. Only then can he be
assured of the "official" position of the organization one way or the other.
Meantime,
all we all have are the various opinions of this and any other lists on
which Joseph is. We should, in my own view, back him as much as we can;
but, then
too, we should not allow human emotion to cloud our judgement about such
matters. There's all types on this list; and, we are all at bering degrees
of
independence and also at varying degrees of thinking about that
independence. I suspect that both frankness and some caution are what are
wanted
here.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>
>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>
>>> Skype name:
>>> barefootedray
>>>
>>> Facebook:
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 13, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>>>
>>>> I do not intend to start up a big stir, but Joseph, what do you have
>>>> against walking a few steps, straight and then receiving your cane. I
>>>> have a little
sight, but I know I could do it with a blindfold. Its only 5 or 6 steps!
You mean you can not walk anywhere in your home, with out your cane? You
can
even feal the threshold of the entrence, as you walk over it.
>>>> I do this, with no sighted guide and stay on the other side, until I
>>>> get my cane back. Coming back, I was also asked to take off my shoes.
>>>> I was
surprised, but did not complain, even though I have medical problems that
make it hard to bend over. I wanted to make it through, so I did what I
guess
everyone else had to do and I made it through.
>>>> Terry Powers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: T. Joseph Carter [mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:22 PM
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>
>>>> I gave them my cane for scanning and asked to have it returned to me so
>>>> I could travel through the metal detector. I was told that I had to
>>>> take the
agent's arm. I said I was fine with the cane, and that the cane would not
set off the metal detector. I was told that I could not do that, even after
offering
them the copy of their own regulations saying that I could and should.
>>>>
>>>> What followed was punitive action taken because I tried to assert my
>>>> right to travel with a cane, not an arm. You'd think punishment for
>>>> using a cane
rather than a sighted guide is right up the NFB's alley.
>>>> Apparently though, it's not.
>>>>
>>>> I'll be pursuing it on my own. But as Mike so eloquently put it, I'm
>>>> "not a-gonna win" if I do that. I will do it anyway, though, because
>>>> it is the right thing
to do. We fought for the right to our canes, and if we haven't got the guts
to defend that right, then we don't really have it after all.
>>>>
>>>> I'll just hope that when I lose, I don't manage to set any new
>>>> precedents that we don't in fact have a right to our canes. I don't
>>>> know that I could
prevent that going it alone, but several people have made it quite clear
that punishment for using a white cane just isn't the NFB's fight.
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:56:43PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Joeseph,
>>>>> I'm sure there is more to the story; its clear they did extra
>>>>> screening
>>>>> as a punishment.
>>>>> But what rights were violated? Where did they insist upon sighted
>>>>> guide?
>>>>> I thought you gave up your cane for scanning and walked through the
>>>>> scanner without it?
>>>>> So where does this sighted guide come in? If you walk five steps
>>>>> without your cane, it's a straight shot, and you didn't have a guide.
>>>>> I never had a guide when going through a security metal detector
>>>>> whether at a federal building, at the Capitol for a concert, or the
>>>>> Pentagon.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was a little upset when they wanted me to give up my cane last time
>>>>> I
>>>>> flew as well.
>>>>> But after I walked through the scanner without setting it off, it was
>>>>> returned to me promptly.
>>>>> If you file a complaint with TSA, let us know how it goes.
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: T. Joseph Carter
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>
>>>>> So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>>>> into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can
>>>>> do
>>>>> too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
>>>>> illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
>>>>> hard for as an organization?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just want to be sure I understand here. Because the TSA said that of
>>>>> nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
>>>>> who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
>>>>> denied the use of my cane for travel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>>>> respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>>>> drag for everyone, and indignities abound. I think solidarity across
>>>>>> the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>>>> metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>>>> to end up on a "no fly" list. The point is, you are exactly right
>>>>>> that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
>>>>>> jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and
>>>>>> we've
>>>>>> won some, and lost many others. I think we need to figure out where
>>>>>> to focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that
>>>>>> we face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments
>>>>>> when it comes to security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>>>> the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
>>>>>> does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
>>>>>> meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
>>>>>> something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to
>>>>>> jail....
>>>>>> Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
>>>>>> miminize the fight we all face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian M
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>>>> To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
>>>>>> your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else.
>>>>>> Blind
>>>>>> people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> on planes themselves.
>>>>>> Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
>>>>>> big deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>>>> commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>>>> the future!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Mike and others here. Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>>>> much power. It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>>>> patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity. but as Ryan
>>>>>> said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone. And,
>>>>>> I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>>>> seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> check, and then have their cane handed right back to them. I
>>>>>> question
>>>>>> someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
>>>>>> without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
>>>>>> exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
>>>>>> by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>>>> brief time. But to each their own. Joseph, I'll be curious if you
>>>>>> get a reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alicia
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>> signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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