[nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discriminationin Orlando

T. Joseph Carter carter.tjoseph at gmail.com
Fri Jul 15 23:09:45 UTC 2011 

Terry,

You had folding scissors in the cabin on the plane?!  Those are 
approved for checked baggage, but not carry-on.  You may carry-on a 
slate and stylus, however.

Joseph


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:02:50AM -0400, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>Thankfully I had no trouble with my Apex, folding craft sizzors and nd needle along with the craft project, yarn, ID mate, snacks, medications and plastic ware and cups.  I was not questioned about any of my items.  The only bad thing that happened was when I got home, 2 of my medication bottles where open and spilled in their case.  Thankfully they were in different carying cases or I would have had a mess.  I can not say if this happened at security or from being tossed around.
>
>Terry Powers
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net [mailto:bookwormahb at earthlink.net]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:10 PM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discriminationin Orlando
>
>Joseph,
>I'll discuss more off list perhaps as I'm interested if the TSA even responds and when Scott responds what his reaction is.
>I am glad you have a complaint in mind. The time and date will help. Oh my is our government bad if you cannot record this stuff. What a way to cover up their treatment. I wasn't aware it was a crime warranting arrest. I thought you just got a ticket or something like that.
>I do hope something is done. Another idea is to contact your state affiliate president; remember national office is busy and state presidents might be able to help out more.
>You could also write a letter to your congressmen and tell them what happened.
>
>TSA screening of us is a concern of mine as I do not like people touching me and with the media covering these invasive searches, it really really scares me.  Also I wonder if you'd be able to get a stylus through security now. I guess they still comfiscate small items like nail clippers and scissors.
>I wonder if they'd take medical supplies such as needles too?
>How on earth do people get their notetakers through security now? They don't look like a typical computer and TSA could suspect that you have something in it.
>
>Anyway, don't give up and I hope you do get support. As I said Scott is busy and I'd follow up with him in a week if he doesn't respond.
>I do that with high up busy people whether it be my state president or a college dean.
>
>Ashley
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: T. Joseph Carter
>Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 8:19 PM
>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA discriminationin Orlando
>
>Names were never given to me, no.  Neither the female agent who told me I would be subject to additional screening, nor the male agent who performed that screening, nor the male agent who lied to me about the scanner.  I do have the date and time I went through, however, and the TSA does record video.
>
>Passengers may not record anything going through security.
>
>I am filing a complaint in the morning, on my own, as seems to be the general consensus here that I should do.  It won't go anywhere without the NFB behind it, since the TSA is not obliged to actually investigate it or anything.
>
>Joseph
>
>
>On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 06:37:30PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote:
>>Steve, great advice. You have to file a complaint quickly and
>>thouroughly with out the emotion.
>>Also, state any staff whom you dealt with. Joeseph, do you have the
>>officers's names?
>>Good luck.
>>Ashley
>>
>>-----Original Message----- From: Steve Jacobson
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 4:01 PM
>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Joseph's situation: was: Re: TSA
>>discriminationin Orlando
>>
>>If anything good is to come out of this, this must all be thought
>>through carefully.  I think the first thing to do is to find out where
>>and how to lodge a complaint.  The second thing is to think through the
>>whole situation and figure out which part of what happened can be clearly proven.
>>It is very
>>likely that it will be a lot of Joe's word against their word here.
>>For example, we do not think that the metal detector went off.  Are we
>>sure, though, and can we prove it?  Do they always make a sound?  Can
>>Joe say for certain that he didn't hear it going off given his state by
>>then?  If they claim that the metal detector went off, then their
>>pat-down is going to be seen as justifiable.
>>Whether Joe should have been taken behind a screen is then a separate
>>matter and I don't know what sort of regulations there are.
>>
>>Joe, I understand your frustration when people miss the point
>>completely, but you seem to require that we are 100% cheerleaders or we
>>are against you.
>>You don't need cheerleaders, you need people to ask challenging
>>questions now so you have the answers later.  You also need to take
>>into account the fact that some people take vacations after
>>conventions, and your case doesn't have a one week statute of
>>limitations. If you have not done so, you should carefully write down
>>your experience with as much of the details as you can remember.  Your
>>post here is a pretty good start, but try to get past the anger and
>>relate events as objectively as you can.  Identify the staff with whom
>>you interacted as much as you can.  Someone said you should avoid that
>>airline, but I don't think the people you dealt with were likely
>>airline personnel, but it may not be clear to whom they are
>>responsible.  If you are wrong about the metal detector not going off
>>or even if they claim you are wrong, it puts a lot of doubt on your
>>case since what they did after would no longer be punitive but
>>procedure.  Was there anyone with you who would be in a good position
>>to back up your position that you did not set off the metal detector?
>>Even if it is your word against theirs, it is still worth filing a
>>complaint.  Even if they claim that, for example, the metal detector
>>went off and they were then following procedure, your complaint at
>>least shows that they did not communicate with you well which is still
>>wrong.  Over the years we hve helped a number of people with complaints
>>here in Minnesota, and it just isn't always the case that the first
>>line of defense is waiting for the national office to get back to you.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Steve Jacobson
>>
>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:41:18 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>
>>>Joseph, I am not looking to contradict what you are saying; but,
>>>frankly, I wonder something.  did you attempt to telephone Scot
>>>Labarre?  did you attempt
>>to telephone Dr. Maurer?  I myself have successfully reached him a time
>>or two when I needed to.  I understand your anger; and, believe me, I
>>am not trying to say that what happened to you was right.  Neither, for
>>that matter, is anybody else.  I fail to understand how you were
>>attacked by any leader of the federation on this list.  I plead with
>>you not to let the present anger you feel cause you to believe the
>>entire federation is against you.  Quite naturally, you wish an
>>emidiate response; and, I'm sure we all would like the same thing.
>>But, sometimes, a phone call is much faster than e-mail.  May I
>>respectfully suggest that you might get better results if you
>>telephoned the national
>>center:
>>
>>>410-659-9314
>>>and got Dr. Maurer on the phone?  It can be done.  I hope you do not
>>>hold the view that just because I'm defending the list to the extent I
>>>am, that I'm
>>against you.  Doubtless, that is hard to see now because of the
>>emotional closeness of your situation.  Try the phone.  I suspect that
>>you will get faster results.  Hypothetically, let's say you got hold of
>>Dr. Maurer this very day.  Let's say he agreed to take the case.  Do
>>you seriously imagine that we could haul the  TSA in court and make
>>them pay up on your behalf tomorrow?  Not possible.  I know you want a
>>resolution of this matter right now; but, to speak frankly, you're not
>>going to get it by just sending one or two e-mails and then waiting
>>letting your anger increase until you think the entire federation is
>>against you just because you happened to read the personal opinions of
>>perhaps one or two federation leaders who may or may not agree with
>>you.  Please keep this in mind.  Those were their personal opinions
>>only; NOT, mind you, the actual official positions of the organization.
>>Perhaps, before you type your reply to this, perhaps you should pick up
>>the phone and contact Scott Labarre and Dr. Maurer.  You may have to
>>leave messages for them; but, they've got a lot to do.  Still, at least
>>give it a try.  I'm trying to be constructive with regard to your
>>situation.  It's not that I do not believe you, I do.  IF I were in
>>your situation and you in mine, I'd expect you to tell me the same
>>thing.  Don't let your anger blot out your reason.
>>
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>
>>>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>
>>>Skype name:
>>>barefootedray
>>
>>>Facebook:
>>>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Jul 13, 2011, at 11:15 AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>>
>>>>Ray, my email to Scott LaBarre has gone completely unanswered and, so far
>>>>as I can tell, completely ignored.
>>>>
>>>>And for the ten thousandth time: I WAS NOT OFFERED THE CHOICE of walking
>>>>alone through the metal detector.
>>>>
>>>>The leaders of the Federation who purport to represent it should not be
>>>>so quick to attack the membership if they dont want their opinions to be
>>>>taken as
>>the organizations position.  I have their opinions and no other response.
>>What am I to think?
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 08:21:12AM -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>>>>>Until now, I have deliberately stayed out of this thread.  I wanted to
>>>>>see if cooler heads would prevail.  What seems to have happened is this.
>>>>>Joseph, I
>>wanted to say this to you openly on the list because I want it thoroughly
>>understood where I'm coming from.  On the face of it, it would appear,
>>based on
>>your story, that your rights as a blind person, (and a federationist also),
>>were violated.  Clearly, and without doubt, your rights were indeed
>>violated.  There is
>>no debate about that; and, it seems to me that everybody on the list pretty
>>much agrees with you on that; and, perhaps, to that extent, shares your own
>>outrage.  The debate, it seems to me, is this.  Should this be a matter for
>>the federation.  Clearly, in your opinion, the answer seems to be and ought
>>to be
>>"yes".  However, there are some on this list, (a federation leader or two
>>among them), who hold the view that, though much wrong was done you, it is
>>not
>>necessarily a federation matter.  At this point, perhaps in the impulsive
>>heat and freshness of your anger, you then attribute the contrary opinion
>>to yours on
>>this list upon the part of some as being the "official" position of the
>>National Federation of the Blind merely because such contrary opinion has
>>been
>>expressed by one or more federation leaders.  Therefore, in your anger,
>>(refreshed by such contrary opinions), you now view the federation as being
>>against
>>you; and, you feel that most everyone on this list is against you.
>>Doubtless, in your pain and anger, you say to yourself, "IF a federation
>>leader is going to
>>speak against me, then, surely, this represents the official opinion of the
>>federation; and, therefore, it's useless to officially ask the federation
>>for help
>>because a leader has spoken against me and his position is the official
>>position of the federation.  IF this is the case, blast the whole thing!
>>I'm going on my
>>own and blast what the Federation says!".
>>>>>
>>>>>Joseph, let me remind you of something.  The National Federation has
>>>>>NOT, (I repeat and emphasize NOT), taken an "official" position against
>>your case or even for it.  Let us all recall this.  The only thing which
>>has happened here is that You, Joseph, put to us your experiences at the
>>airport,
>>(which, it should go without saying), were very bad and frankly
>>unnecessary.  Some discussion was had about the matter.  Some federation
>>leaders who
>>just happened to be on this list contributed their personal opinions
>>regarding this.  However, it's just as important to remember what DID, NOT,
>>HAPPEN.
>>The National Federation of the Blind did NOT formally refuse to aid you.
>>The organization did not do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now, the last of my remarks are directed to the rest of us.  There is no
>>>>>doubt, in my mind at least, that most of us here feel that Joseph was
>>wronged.  We're all with him on that.  Some of us posit that he should have
>>been allowed to keep his cane; while, others of us, myself included, feel
>>that he
>>could have done without it for the very short walk through what is
>>essentially a straight line.  So, who is right and who is wrong?  I posit
>>that this is a matter
>>we each need to determine for ourselves.  Some of us will feel one way,
>>some of us another.  This is an extremely delicate balancing act which, if
>>we are all
>>honest with ourselves, we will never get right all of the time.  Perhaps,
>>as a matter of course, Joseph should seek official help from the federation
>>if he feels
>>that there is a compelling necessity to obtain it.  Only then can he be
>>assured of the "official" position of the organization one way or the
>>other. Meantime,
>>all we all have are the various opinions of this and any other lists on
>>which Joseph is.  We should, in my own view, back him as much as we can;
>>but, then
>>too, we should not allow human emotion to cloud our judgement about such
>>matters.  There's all types on this list; and, we are all at bering degrees
>>of
>>independence and also at varying degrees of thinking about that
>>independence.  I suspect that both frankness and some caution are what are
>>wanted
>>here.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you very much.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>Skype name:
>>>>>barefootedray
>>>>>
>>>>>Facebook:
>>>>>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Jul 13, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Powers, Terry (NIH/OD/DEAS) [E] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I do not intend to start up a big stir, but Joseph, what do you have
>>>>>>against walking a few steps, straight and then receiving your cane.  I
>>>>>>have a little
>>sight, but I know I could do it with a blindfold.  Its only 5 or 6 steps!
>>You mean you can not walk anywhere in your home, with out your cane?  You
>>can
>>even feal the threshold of the entrence, as you walk over it.
>>>>>>I do this, with no sighted guide and stay on the other side, until I
>>>>>>get my cane back.  Coming back, I was also asked to take off my shoes.
>>>>>>I was
>>surprised, but did not complain, even though I have medical problems that
>>make it hard to bend over.  I wanted to make it through, so I did what I
>>guess
>>everyone else had to do and I made it through.
>>>>>>Terry Powers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: T. Joseph Carter [mailto:carter.tjoseph at gmail.com]
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 9:22 PM
>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I gave them my cane for scanning and asked to have it returned to me so
>>>>>>I could travel through the metal detector.  I was told that I had to
>>>>>>take the
>>agent's arm.  I said I was fine with the cane, and that the cane would not
>>set off the metal detector.  I was told that I could not do that, even
>>after offering
>>them the copy of their own regulations saying that I could and should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What followed was punitive action taken because I tried to assert my
>>>>>>right to travel with a cane, not an arm.  You'd think punishment for
>>>>>>using a cane
>>rather than a sighted guide is right up the NFB's alley.
>>>>>>Apparently though, it's not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll be pursuing it on my own.  But as Mike so eloquently put it, I'm
>>>>>>"not a-gonna win" if I do that.  I will do it anyway, though, because
>>>>>>it is the right thing
>>to do.  We fought for the right to our canes, and if we haven't got the
>>guts to defend that right, then we don't really have it after all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll just hope that when I lose, I don't manage to set any new
>>>>>>precedents that we don't in fact have a right to our canes.  I don't
>>>>>>know that I could
>>prevent that going it alone, but several people have made it quite clear
>>that punishment for using a white cane just isn't the NFB's fight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 05:56:43PM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>Joeseph,
>>>>>>>I'm sure there is more to the story; its clear they did extra
>>>>>>>screening
>>>>>>>as a punishment.
>>>>>>>But what rights were violated? Where did they insist upon sighted
>>>>>>>guide?
>>>>>>>I thought you gave up your cane for scanning and walked through the
>>>>>>>scanner without it?
>>>>>>>So where does this sighted guide come in? If you walk five steps
>>>>>>>without your cane, it's a straight shot, and you didn't have a guide.
>>>>>>>I never had a guide when going through a security metal detector
>>>>>>>whether at a federal building, at the Capitol for a concert, or the
>>>>>>>Pentagon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I was a little upset when they wanted me to give up my cane last time
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>flew as well.
>>>>>>>But after I walked through the scanner without setting it off, it was
>>>>>>>returned to me promptly.
>>>>>>>If you file a complaint with TSA, let us know how it goes.
>>>>>>>Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: T. Joseph Carter
>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So what you're saying, Brian, is that you're willing to be intimidated
>>>>>>>into giving up your rights, because the big boogeyman TSA agents can
>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>>too much to you if you don't do exactly what they say, whether it's
>>>>>>>illegal or flies in the face of every battle we have fought long and
>>>>>>>hard for as an organization?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Just want to be sure I understand here.  Because the TSA said that of
>>>>>>>nearly 3,000 blind people going through the airport, I'm the only one
>>>>>>>who insisted that I had a right NOT to be led around like a child,
>>>>>>>denied the use of my cane for travel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joseph
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 09:07:58PM -0400, Brian Miller wrote:
>>>>>>>>Hi Peter,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I don't think anyone feels that Joe was treated well, or with the
>>>>>>>>respect he deserves, but security checks are a serious hassle and a
>>>>>>>>drag for everyone, and indignities abound.  I think solidarity across
>>>>>>>>the board, and not just for blind people, is in order.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I merely say that for me using my cane to walk a few feet through the
>>>>>>>>metal detector is not worth fighting over -- the last thing I need is
>>>>>>>>to end up on a "no fly" list.  The point is, you are exactly right
>>>>>>>>that the blind have been fighting, and getting arrested, and going to
>>>>>>>>jail, for years over our right to have our mobility devices, and
>>>>>>>>we've
>>>>>>>>won some, and lost many others.  I think we need to figure out where
>>>>>>>>to focus our energies to maximize independence while recognizing that
>>>>>>>>we face a very difficult environment in which to make our arguments
>>>>>>>>when it comes to security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Heck, we still don't, and maybe never will, have the right to sit in
>>>>>>>>the emergency row -- now that makes me feel more like a child than
>>>>>>>>does a quick guide through the magnetometer .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Not long ago Dr. Fred Schoeder was denied the right to fly to a
>>>>>>>>meeting because he was traveling alone... Granted, this was not in
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>United States, but that kind of right of freedom of movement, is
>>>>>>>>something I'm willing to lie down on the tarmac for and go to
>>>>>>>>jail....
>>>>>>>>Maybe not a jail in Thailand, though *smile*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In any case, I don't think Alicia, or any of us, are trying to
>>>>>>>>miminize the fight we all face.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Brian M
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>[mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 11:30 AM
>>>>>>>>To: Alicia Richards; NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hello Alicia and everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The next time you pass through a TSA Check point we'll cut both of
>>>>>>>>your feet off and demand that you walk through like anyone else.
>>>>>>>>Blind
>>>>>>>>people have fought long and hard to be allowed to keep their canes
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>dogs with them at all times while passing through TSA check points
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>on planes themselves.
>>>>>>>>Blind people were arrested and went to jail to insure these rights
>>>>>>>>are
>>>>>>>>protected and we don't need our own people telling us that it's not a
>>>>>>>>big deal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peter Donahue who along with Mary took their last flight ever on a
>>>>>>>>commercial airliner and can look forward to avoiding TSA screeners in
>>>>>>>>the future!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: "Alicia Richards" <alicianfb at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:37 PM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] TSA discrimination in Orlando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I agree with Mike and others here.  Yes, the TSA has been given too
>>>>>>>>much power.  It's shameful that they can perform such invasive
>>>>>>>>patdowns, violating one's personal space and dignity.  but as Ryan
>>>>>>>>said, that's not a blindness issue: they can do that to anyone.  And,
>>>>>>>>I've never understood people's issue with giving up their cane for 30
>>>>>>>>seconds, taking someone's hand to walk five steps through the
>>>>>>>>security
>>>>>>>>check, and then have their cane handed right back to them.  I
>>>>>>>>question
>>>>>>>>someone's mobility training if they are unable to walk five steps
>>>>>>>>without their cane, and also can't help but wonder if they're
>>>>>>>>exhibiting what I believe was once called, "rebellious independence,"
>>>>>>>>by refusing to take the hand or arm of a TSA official for that very
>>>>>>>>brief time.  But to each their own.  Joseph, I'll be curious if you
>>>>>>>>get a reply from Scott LaBarre about this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Alicia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>>>>signature database 6282 (20110710) __________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>nfb-talk:
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>>>>>>>>satx.r
>>>>>>>>r.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>nfb-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>nfb-talk:
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>>>>>>>>er%40u
>>>>>>>>iowa.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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