[nfb-talk] We all are missing an important fact

Michael Hingson info at michaelhingson.com
Wed Oct 5 02:38:47 UTC 2011


I understand the outcry about Amazon not making the Kindle Fire accessible.
Certainly today the technology exists to do so.  Amazon simply doesn't care.

However, what I find as interesting or more so concerning the accessibility
discussion is that none of the mainstream news sources and blogs have not
yet discussed accessibility.  Apple set a pretty high bar.  Their iProducts
are mostly accessible.  While Apple has more to do they have made it
possible for us to use their products out of the box pretty much.  None of
the news sources acknowledge this nor do they pay a lick of attention to the
fact that Amazon continues to do nothing.

If we are going to speak out against Amazon, (something I believe we should
do), we also should begin creating a dialog concerning the fact that the
major publications that cover technology news do not pay attention to
accessibility either.  The market is bigger than simply blind people.  I
think the NFB should begin to make waves with the news types about their own
behavior.  I think it can be done in a constructive way, but it needs to be
done.


Best,


Mike Hingson

The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
 “Speaking with Vision”
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
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-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:09 PM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the Blind
Condemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?

I find this entire thread extremely discouraging.  If Josh and others had
spent half the time explaining our position as 
they have spent trying to get the guy banned and calling him ignorant or
whatever, he would at least have a better 
understanding of our position and perhaps even changed his.  If someone
argues repeatedly in numerous posts 
without regard to the intended topic of the list, then a different approach
must be taken.  However, reacting like this to 
one post just doesn't make sense.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:35:14 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:

>You said that we all here know that the NFB doesn't jump to 
>litigation straight off the bat.  I don't think we all do know that, 
>since some on this very list have indicated believing otherwise.  If 
>we assume that several of them aren't people looking to rehash their 
>own personal issues again and again, then we must assume that they 
>said it because they don't know.

>So for the record: We don't go straight to litigation, pretty much 
>ever.  It's expensive for us as well as for them, and if we can avoid 
>it, everybody spends a lot less money and the situation usually gets 
>resolved a lot faster.  But we will and do turn to litigation when 
>negotiation and legislation fail us.

>Joseph


>On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 08:46:58PM -0400, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>While we all have a right to an opinion, wrong-headed as an opinion might
be, I think both sides need to step back 
a little.
>>
>>I really want to address the whole "clueless sigh tie" and "ACB plant"
thing. These kinds of comments do all of us a 
disservice, especially when posted in a public venue.
>>
>>When I was young and stupid (I'm older and still stupid), I was on a guide
dog list. Actually, I'm still on that list. It 
was, picture it, right around the time of the October 1995 Braille Monitor.
Because I'm a contrary old cuss, I thought to 
myself, well now, this guide dog thing might be kind of interesting, maybe
I'll give it a try. So I went on the list, and one 
of the first things that happened was that someone asked for the list's
thoughts on the October 1995 Braille Monitor. 
To make a long story interesting, I asked some rather controversial
questions. Which is to say, I asked for information 
about guide dog use, why people felt the way they did, what do guide dog
users do in this or that situation, and so on. 
And, because I was young and stupid, it's more than possible that I was also
not very diplomatic in the asking. 
Fortunately, there were people on the list who understood my intent;
admittedly, emotions were running very high 
around this issue, and perhaps if they weren't, things may have happened
differently. In any case, I was accused of 
being a troll, coming on to stir up trouble, being an NFB plant, yes,
really, and all manner of scurrilous things. So when 
people talk about organizational plants with no basis in fact, it sets my
teeth on edge. Probably my problem, but there it 
is.
>>
>>Poit being, do we really need to stoop to such labeling? If we do, I think
our argument is lost. Rather, is it not better 
to argue the issues on their merit, or lack thereof?
>>
>>FWIW, I think the person writing in initially may well have an axe to
grind. Be that as it may, we here all know that 
we don't just jump to litigation straight off. I know for a fact that, not
only the NFB, but others (yes, including the ACB) 
have tried to initiate discussions regarding access to Kindle hardware and
Kindle content. It's quite clear to me that 
education has been tried from many, many quarters, not just NFB, and
education has clearly failed. Apparently being 
nice isn't working, and I really, really don't just mean the NFB. Lawsuit
time? I don't know. Probably many different 
avenues need to be taken at once.
>>--
>>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>>On Oct 4, 2011, at 7:47 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> He like all of us, is entitled to his opinion/s.  Just because he makes
a
>>> statement, doesn't make him a bad person..maybe just not a person who is
at
>>> the same place where some of us are at, but please keep in mind, that
not
>>> every person in the NFB is at the same  place as any of you either.
Rethink
>>> your comments about him as he again, is merely voicing his opinion...a
right
>>> that we all have.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
>>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 2:45 PM
>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the Blind
>>> Condemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>>
>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>> Look at what this idiot just sent, to the entire NFB of Arkansas!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: terrysteve at suddenlink.net
>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:59:48 -0500
>>> Subject: Why did the National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of
>>> Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>> To: tosheeler at cox.net, bkshfreeman at gmail.com, bfreeman0420 at gmail.com,
>>> vtscott at cox.net, leaann1967 at gmail.com, j.scholes at sbcglobal.net,
>>> bogan1265 at yahoo.com, geofynder at gmail.com, Gogetm00 at aol.com,
>>> hayleyksch at gmail.com, dave.mehler at gmail.com, walkercutoff at att.net,
>>> Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov, Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov,
>>> lyles_j at sbcglobal.net, honestblindman at gmail.com, pat.nfb at att.net,
>>> bkkindle at yahoo.com, Teddey3000 at aol.com, james.worley at cox.net,
>>> twedwards1111 at gmail.com, anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com, deweycoursey at cox.net,
>>> lizngraves at yahoo.com, erp at uark.edu, mika_hooper at yahoo.com,
>>> Matteri at cox.net, donbrey at gmail.com, trinitymlovell at gmail.com,
>>> clj_smith at yahoo.com, arspurplegirl at cox.net, delreal93 at yahoo.com,
>>> ctroby at uark.edu, e.yarberry at gmail.com, jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu,
>>> gvwright2 at juno.com, lhwayland at sbcglobal.net, joshcrunkleton at gmail.com,
>>> showard826 at gmail.com, jsexson at live.com, sflesher at yahoo.com,
>>> diane403bill at suddenlink.net, abhoxeng at yahoo.com, hoxeng at aol.com,
>>> barefootinar at yahoo.com, peter-hoffman at att.net, kaylaltodd at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Get a grip folks! There are many devices designed, manufactured and sold
>>> that are not "blind friendly". And rightly so! It was stated that "The
>>> feasibility of including accessibility in similar products has been
>>> demonstrated." As a result of this statement there must be devices of
this
>>> nature that are "blind friendly". So the blind apparently do have this
>>> technology available to them. And just to put a point on it, the Kindle
Fire
>>> is a PERSONAL devise, not a community device. There are dozens of
devices
>>> that use touch screens. None of these are "blind friendly". I doubt if
the
>>> technology now exists to make them "blind friendly".
>>>
>>> This tirade by Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
the
>>> Blind, is typical of individuals that get so fanatical about  an issue
they
>>> have loose touch with the reality of the real world in their unrealistic
>>> search for and unworldly and unobtainable utopia. I have books on my
shelf
>>> that the blind cannot read; must all my books be audio? I have clocks in
my
>>> home that the blind cannot use to tell the time; must all my clocks be
>>> talking. I drive a car that the blind cannot drive. This is not me being
>>> unsympathetic to the blind or to the cause of the blind, it is me being
>>> realistic in my reality. There is technology that the blind cannot use
>>> because they are blind. Sorry, FACT! There is technology that cannot be
made
>>> available to the blind due to our level of technology at this time.
Touch
>>> screens in use by many devices again come to mind. Can't we focus on
what
>>> can be done and what needs to be done. Not on minor issues as that
below?
>>>
>>> Dr. Maurer should rethink his position regarding Amazon, waste not his
>>> energy on such nonsense and concentrate on those things which actually
help
>>> our cause. Senselessly attacking anything that is not "blind friendly"
>>> actually hurts the cause. Using some common sense in choosing the issues
to
>>> tackle is important to our cause.
>>>
>>> Lets tone down the rhetoric and concentrate on issues that help our
blind
>>> friends and make the public aware of their real needs and not insist on
>>> unnecessary requirements that turn the public against us and out cause
and
>>> make us look like foolish fanatics. Stop hurting our cause with self
serving
>>> rhetoric.
>>>
>>> Steve Terry
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>> To: <bkshfreeman at gmail.com>; <bfreeman0420 at gmail.com>;
<vtscott at cox.net>;
>>> <leaann1967 at gmail.com>; <j.scholes at sbcglobal.net>;
<bogan1265 at yahoo.com>;
>>> <geofynder at gmail.com>; <Gogetm00 at aol.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>;
>>> <dave.mehler at gmail.com>; <walkercutoff at att.net>;
>>> <Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov>; <Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov>;
>>> <lyles_j at sbcglobal.net>; <honestblindman at gmail.com>; <pat.nfb at att.net>;
>>> <bkkindle at yahoo.com>; <Teddey3000 at aol.com>; <james.worley at cox.net>;
>>> <twedwards1111 at gmail.com>; <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>;
<deweycoursey at cox.net>;
>>> <lizngraves at yahoo.com>; <erp at uark.edu>; <mika_hooper at yahoo.com>;
>>> <Matteri at cox.net>; <donbrey at gmail.com>; <trinitymlovell at gmail.com>;
>>> <clj_smith at yahoo.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>; <arspurplegirl at cox.net>;
>>> <delreal93 at yahoo.com>; <ctroby at uark.edu>; <e.yarberry at gmail.com>;
>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <gvwright2 at juno.com>;
>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <lhwayland at sbcglobal.net>;
>>> <joshcrunkleton at gmail.com>; <showard826 at gmail.com>; <jsexson at live.com>;
>>> <sflesher at yahoo.com>; <diane403bill at suddenlink.net>;
<abhoxeng at yahoo.com>;
>>> <hoxeng at aol.com>; <barefootinar at yahoo.com>; <Terrysteve at suddenlink.net>;
>>> <peter-hoffman at att.net>; <kaylaltodd at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 6:19 PM
>>> Subject: Fwd: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of Access
to
>>> New Kindle Fire
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "Freeh, Jessica" <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>> To: Alpidio Rolon <arguza at attglobal.net>, Amy Buresh
>>>> <amy.buresh74 at gmail.com>,
>>> Art Schreiber <blindart at samobile.net>, Beth Rival <erival at comcast.net>,
Bill
>>> Packee <alaskanfb at yahoo.com>, Bob Kresmer <krezguy at cox.net>, Carl
Jacobsen
>>> <office at nfbny.org>, Cassandra McNabb <cemcnabb21 at yahoo.com>, Cathy
Jackson
>>> <cathyj at iglou.com>, Charlene Smyth <cs.nfbwv at verizon.net>, "Christine G.
>>> Hall" <c.tessa4 at comcast.net>, Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>, Daniel
Burke
>>> <burke.dall at gmail.com>, Don Galloway <dgalloway627 at gmail.com>, Donna
Wood
>>> <donnajwood at cox.net>, Duane Iverson <diverson at samobile.net>, Elsie
Dickerson
>>> <elsiedickerson at ymail.com>, Frank Lee <francois57 at comcast.net>, Franklin
>>> Shiner <fshiner at myfairpoint.net>, Fred Schroeder <fschroeder at sks.com>,
>>> Garrick Scott <gscott at nfbga.org>, Gary Ray <ghraynfbofnc at charter.net>,
Gary
>>> Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net>, Grace Pires <silvara at cox.net>, "J.W.
Smith"
>>> <jwsmithnfb at verizon.net>, James Antonacci <president at nfbp.org>, Jeannie
>>> Massay <Jmassay1 at cox.net>, Jennifer Dunnam
<jennifer.dunnam1829 at gmail.com>,
>>> Joe Ruffalo <nfbnj at yahoo.com>, John Batron <jbatron at maine.rr.com>, John
>>> Fritz
>>> <johnfritz at centurytel.net>, Joy Harris <joy.harris at dwx.com>, Joyce
Scanlan
>>> <joyce.scanlan at earthlink.net>, Ken Rollman <gatorbumps at rushmore.com>,
Kim
>>> Williams <rkvend at aol.com>, Kimberly Flores <kflores at nfb-texas.org>,
Larry
>>> Posont <president.nfb.mi at gmail.com>, Lynn Majewski <majla at verizon.net>,
>>> Mary
>>> Willows <mwillows at sbcglobal.net>, Melissa Riccobono
<melissa at riccobono.us>,
>>> Michael Barber <michael.NFBI at gmail.com>, Michael Freeman
<k7uij at panix.com>,
>>> Mika Pyyhkala <pyyhkala at gmail.com>, Nani Fife <nanifife at aol.com>, Pam
Allen
>>> <pallen at lcb-ruston.com>, Parnell Diggs <parnell at sccoast.net>, Patti
Chang
>>> <pattichang at att.net>, Rena Smith <realhappygirl1 at gmail.com>, Ron Brown
>>> <rb15 at iquest.net>, "Gardner, Ron" <RGardner at nfb.org>, Sam Gleese
>>> <SGleese at city.jackson.ms.us>, Scott LaBarre <slabarre at labarrelaw.com>,
Terry
>>> Sheeler <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:50:08 -0700
>>>> Subject: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of Access to
New
>>> Kindle Fire
>>>>
>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>
>>>> CONTACT:
>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Condemns
>>>> Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire
>>>>
>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (September 29, 2011): The National Federation of
the
>>>> Blind commented today on the release of Amazon's new Kindle Fire, which
>>>> cannot be used by people who are blind.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
said:
>>>> "Blind Americans have repeatedly asked Amazon to include accessibility
for
>>>> the blind in its Kindle product line.  The feasibility of including
>>>> accessibility in similar products has been demonstrated.  The
Department
>>>> of Education and the Department of Justice have made it clear that
Kindle
>>>> devices cannot be purchased by educational institutions, libraries, and
>>>> other entities covered by this country's disability laws unless the
>>>> devices are fully accessible.  Despite all this, Amazon has released a
>>>> brand new Kindle device, the Kindle Fire, which cannot be used by
people
>>>> who are blind.  Enough!  We condemn this latest action by Amazon and
>>>> reiterate that we will not tolerate technological discrimination.  The
>>>> National Federation of the Blind seeks nothing less than equal access
to
>>>> all technology for blind people.  It is one of the most critical civil
>>>> rights issues facing blind Americans in the twenty-first century, and
we
>>>> will do everything in our power to see that this right is secured."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is
the
>>>> largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in
>>>> the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's lives through
>>>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in the
>>>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind.  In January
>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States
for
>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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