[nfb-talk] We all are missing an important fact

Wed Oct 5 14:33:45 UTC 2011

Yes Ashley, if not the fight for access then most of us would not be 
communicating in this fashion!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: <info at michaelhingson.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] We all are missing an important fact


> Absolutely. This is something that the news should cover. And 
> accessibility will benefit a large number of people, not just those 
> legally blind. Anyone losing vision from diabetes or macular degeneration 
> will still have an option to read. Those with learning disabilities or 
> anyone who favors listening to a book rather than reading it will benefit 
> too. I think it would be great to work with other disability groups on 
> this and explain to the news that this has a broader appeal and benefit to 
> society.
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Michael Hingson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:38 PM
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Cc: cdanielson at nfb.org ; 'Riccobono, Mark'
> Subject: [nfb-talk] We all are missing an important fact
>
> I understand the outcry about Amazon not making the Kindle Fire 
> accessible.
> Certainly today the technology exists to do so.  Amazon simply doesn't 
> care.
>
> However, what I find as interesting or more so concerning the 
> accessibility
> discussion is that none of the mainstream news sources and blogs have not
> yet discussed accessibility.  Apple set a pretty high bar.  Their 
> iProducts
> are mostly accessible.  While Apple has more to do they have made it
> possible for us to use their products out of the box pretty much.  None of
> the news sources acknowledge this nor do they pay a lick of attention to 
> the
> fact that Amazon continues to do nothing.
>
> If we are going to speak out against Amazon, (something I believe we 
> should
> do), we also should begin creating a dialog concerning the fact that the
> major publications that cover technology news do not pay attention to
> accessibility either.  The market is bigger than simply blind people.  I
> think the NFB should begin to make waves with the news types about their 
> own
> behavior.  I think it can be done in a constructive way, but it needs to 
> be
> done.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Mike Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> “Speaking with Vision”
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> To order Michael Hingson's new book, Thunder Dog, and check on Michael
> Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit:
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
> Please vote for Roselle for the title of American Dog Hero of the year at
> www.herodogawards.org/view-entries.html#view/359/220458
>
> To learn about the KnfbReader Mobile please visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Jacobson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:09 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the Blind
> Condemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?
>
> I find this entire thread extremely discouraging.  If Josh and others had
> spent half the time explaining our position as
> they have spent trying to get the guy banned and calling him ignorant or
> whatever, he would at least have a better
> understanding of our position and perhaps even changed his.  If someone
> argues repeatedly in numerous posts
> without regard to the intended topic of the list, then a different 
> approach
> must be taken.  However, reacting like this to
> one post just doesn't make sense.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:35:14 -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote:
>
>>You said that we all here know that the NFB doesn't jump to
>>litigation straight off the bat.  I don't think we all do know that,
>>since some on this very list have indicated believing otherwise.  If
>>we assume that several of them aren't people looking to rehash their
>>own personal issues again and again, then we must assume that they
>>said it because they don't know.
>
>>So for the record: We don't go straight to litigation, pretty much
>>ever.  It's expensive for us as well as for them, and if we can avoid
>>it, everybody spends a lot less money and the situation usually gets
>>resolved a lot faster.  But we will and do turn to litigation when
>>negotiation and legislation fail us.
>
>>Joseph
>
>
>>On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 08:46:58PM -0400, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>While we all have a right to an opinion, wrong-headed as an opinion might
> be, I think both sides need to step back
> a little.
>>>
>>>I really want to address the whole "clueless sigh tie" and "ACB plant"
> thing. These kinds of comments do all of us a
> disservice, especially when posted in a public venue.
>>>
>>>When I was young and stupid (I'm older and still stupid), I was on a 
>>>guide
> dog list. Actually, I'm still on that list. It
> was, picture it, right around the time of the October 1995 Braille 
> Monitor.
> Because I'm a contrary old cuss, I thought to
> myself, well now, this guide dog thing might be kind of interesting, maybe
> I'll give it a try. So I went on the list, and one
> of the first things that happened was that someone asked for the list's
> thoughts on the October 1995 Braille Monitor.
> To make a long story interesting, I asked some rather controversial
> questions. Which is to say, I asked for information
> about guide dog use, why people felt the way they did, what do guide dog
> users do in this or that situation, and so on.
> And, because I was young and stupid, it's more than possible that I was 
> also
> not very diplomatic in the asking.
> Fortunately, there were people on the list who understood my intent;
> admittedly, emotions were running very high
> around this issue, and perhaps if they weren't, things may have happened
> differently. In any case, I was accused of
> being a troll, coming on to stir up trouble, being an NFB plant, yes,
> really, and all manner of scurrilous things. So when
> people talk about organizational plants with no basis in fact, it sets my
> teeth on edge. Probably my problem, but there it
> is.
>>>
>>>Poit being, do we really need to stoop to such labeling? If we do, I 
>>>think
> our argument is lost. Rather, is it not better
> to argue the issues on their merit, or lack thereof?
>>>
>>>FWIW, I think the person writing in initially may well have an axe to
> grind. Be that as it may, we here all know that
> we don't just jump to litigation straight off. I know for a fact that, not
> only the NFB, but others (yes, including the ACB)
> have tried to initiate discussions regarding access to Kindle hardware and
> Kindle content. It's quite clear to me that
> education has been tried from many, many quarters, not just NFB, and
> education has clearly failed. Apparently being
> nice isn't working, and I really, really don't just mean the NFB. Lawsuit
> time? I don't know. Probably many different
> avenues need to be taken at once.
>>>--
>>>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Oct 4, 2011, at 7:47 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> He like all of us, is entitled to his opinion/s.  Just because he makes
> a
>>>> statement, doesn't make him a bad person..maybe just not a person who 
>>>> is
> at
>>>> the same place where some of us are at, but please keep in mind, that
> not
>>>> every person in the NFB is at the same  place as any of you either.
> Rethink
>>>> your comments about him as he again, is merely voicing his opinion...a
> right
>>>> that we all have.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
>>>> Behalf Of Joshua Lester
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 2:45 PM
>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Why did the National Federation of the Blind
>>>> Condemns Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>>>
>>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester.
>>>> Look at what this idiot just sent, to the entire NFB of Arkansas!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: terrysteve at suddenlink.net
>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:59:48 -0500
>>>> Subject: Why did the National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of
>>>> Access to New Kindle Fire?
>>>> To: tosheeler at cox.net, bkshfreeman at gmail.com, bfreeman0420 at gmail.com,
>>>> vtscott at cox.net, leaann1967 at gmail.com, j.scholes at sbcglobal.net,
>>>> bogan1265 at yahoo.com, geofynder at gmail.com, Gogetm00 at aol.com,
>>>> hayleyksch at gmail.com, dave.mehler at gmail.com, walkercutoff at att.net,
>>>> Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov, Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov,
>>>> lyles_j at sbcglobal.net, honestblindman at gmail.com, pat.nfb at att.net,
>>>> bkkindle at yahoo.com, Teddey3000 at aol.com, james.worley at cox.net,
>>>> twedwards1111 at gmail.com, anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com, deweycoursey at cox.net,
>>>> lizngraves at yahoo.com, erp at uark.edu, mika_hooper at yahoo.com,
>>>> Matteri at cox.net, donbrey at gmail.com, trinitymlovell at gmail.com,
>>>> clj_smith at yahoo.com, arspurplegirl at cox.net, delreal93 at yahoo.com,
>>>> ctroby at uark.edu, e.yarberry at gmail.com, jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu,
>>>> gvwright2 at juno.com, lhwayland at sbcglobal.net, joshcrunkleton at gmail.com,
>>>> showard826 at gmail.com, jsexson at live.com, sflesher at yahoo.com,
>>>> diane403bill at suddenlink.net, abhoxeng at yahoo.com, hoxeng at aol.com,
>>>> barefootinar at yahoo.com, peter-hoffman at att.net, kaylaltodd at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Get a grip folks! There are many devices designed, manufactured and 
>>>> sold
>>>> that are not "blind friendly". And rightly so! It was stated that "The
>>>> feasibility of including accessibility in similar products has been
>>>> demonstrated." As a result of this statement there must be devices of
> this
>>>> nature that are "blind friendly". So the blind apparently do have this
>>>> technology available to them. And just to put a point on it, the Kindle
> Fire
>>>> is a PERSONAL devise, not a community device. There are dozens of
> devices
>>>> that use touch screens. None of these are "blind friendly". I doubt if
> the
>>>> technology now exists to make them "blind friendly".
>>>>
>>>> This tirade by Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
> the
>>>> Blind, is typical of individuals that get so fanatical about  an issue
> they
>>>> have loose touch with the reality of the real world in their 
>>>> unrealistic
>>>> search for and unworldly and unobtainable utopia. I have books on my
> shelf
>>>> that the blind cannot read; must all my books be audio? I have clocks 
>>>> in
> my
>>>> home that the blind cannot use to tell the time; must all my clocks be
>>>> talking. I drive a car that the blind cannot drive. This is not me 
>>>> being
>>>> unsympathetic to the blind or to the cause of the blind, it is me being
>>>> realistic in my reality. There is technology that the blind cannot use
>>>> because they are blind. Sorry, FACT! There is technology that cannot be
> made
>>>> available to the blind due to our level of technology at this time.
> Touch
>>>> screens in use by many devices again come to mind. Can't we focus on
> what
>>>> can be done and what needs to be done. Not on minor issues as that
> below?
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Maurer should rethink his position regarding Amazon, waste not his
>>>> energy on such nonsense and concentrate on those things which actually
> help
>>>> our cause. Senselessly attacking anything that is not "blind friendly"
>>>> actually hurts the cause. Using some common sense in choosing the 
>>>> issues
> to
>>>> tackle is important to our cause.
>>>>
>>>> Lets tone down the rhetoric and concentrate on issues that help our
> blind
>>>> friends and make the public aware of their real needs and not insist on
>>>> unnecessary requirements that turn the public against us and out cause
> and
>>>> make us look like foolish fanatics. Stop hurting our cause with self
> serving
>>>> rhetoric.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Terry
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>>> To: <bkshfreeman at gmail.com>; <bfreeman0420 at gmail.com>;
> <vtscott at cox.net>;
>>>> <leaann1967 at gmail.com>; <j.scholes at sbcglobal.net>;
> <bogan1265 at yahoo.com>;
>>>> <geofynder at gmail.com>; <Gogetm00 at aol.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>;
>>>> <dave.mehler at gmail.com>; <walkercutoff at att.net>;
>>>> <Donna.Walker at arkansas.gov>; <Matt.Lyles at arkansas.gov>;
>>>> <lyles_j at sbcglobal.net>; <honestblindman at gmail.com>; <pat.nfb at att.net>;
>>>> <bkkindle at yahoo.com>; <Teddey3000 at aol.com>; <james.worley at cox.net>;
>>>> <twedwards1111 at gmail.com>; <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>;
> <deweycoursey at cox.net>;
>>>> <lizngraves at yahoo.com>; <erp at uark.edu>; <mika_hooper at yahoo.com>;
>>>> <Matteri at cox.net>; <donbrey at gmail.com>; <trinitymlovell at gmail.com>;
>>>> <clj_smith at yahoo.com>; <hayleyksch at gmail.com>; <arspurplegirl at cox.net>;
>>>> <delreal93 at yahoo.com>; <ctroby at uark.edu>; <e.yarberry at gmail.com>;
>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <gvwright2 at juno.com>;
>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>; <lhwayland at sbcglobal.net>;
>>>> <joshcrunkleton at gmail.com>; <showard826 at gmail.com>; <jsexson at live.com>;
>>>> <sflesher at yahoo.com>; <diane403bill at suddenlink.net>;
> <abhoxeng at yahoo.com>;
>>>> <hoxeng at aol.com>; <barefootinar at yahoo.com>; 
>>>> <Terrysteve at suddenlink.net>;
>>>> <peter-hoffman at att.net>; <kaylaltodd at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 6:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Fwd: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of Access
> to
>>>> New Kindle Fire
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Freeh, Jessica" <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>>> To: Alpidio Rolon <arguza at attglobal.net>, Amy Buresh
>>>>> <amy.buresh74 at gmail.com>,
>>>> Art Schreiber <blindart at samobile.net>, Beth Rival <erival at comcast.net>,
> Bill
>>>> Packee <alaskanfb at yahoo.com>, Bob Kresmer <krezguy at cox.net>, Carl
> Jacobsen
>>>> <office at nfbny.org>, Cassandra McNabb <cemcnabb21 at yahoo.com>, Cathy
> Jackson
>>>> <cathyj at iglou.com>, Charlene Smyth <cs.nfbwv at verizon.net>, "Christine 
>>>> G.
>>>> Hall" <c.tessa4 at comcast.net>, Dan Hicks <danjhicks at yahoo.com>, Daniel
> Burke
>>>> <burke.dall at gmail.com>, Don Galloway <dgalloway627 at gmail.com>, Donna
> Wood
>>>> <donnajwood at cox.net>, Duane Iverson <diverson at samobile.net>, Elsie
> Dickerson
>>>> <elsiedickerson at ymail.com>, Frank Lee <francois57 at comcast.net>, 
>>>> Franklin
>>>> Shiner <fshiner at myfairpoint.net>, Fred Schroeder <fschroeder at sks.com>,
>>>> Garrick Scott <gscott at nfbga.org>, Gary Ray <ghraynfbofnc at charter.net>,
> Gary
>>>> Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net>, Grace Pires <silvara at cox.net>, "J.W.
> Smith"
>>>> <jwsmithnfb at verizon.net>, James Antonacci <president at nfbp.org>, Jeannie
>>>> Massay <Jmassay1 at cox.net>, Jennifer Dunnam
> <jennifer.dunnam1829 at gmail.com>,
>>>> Joe Ruffalo <nfbnj at yahoo.com>, John Batron <jbatron at maine.rr.com>, John
>>>> Fritz
>>>> <johnfritz at centurytel.net>, Joy Harris <joy.harris at dwx.com>, Joyce
> Scanlan
>>>> <joyce.scanlan at earthlink.net>, Ken Rollman <gatorbumps at rushmore.com>,
> Kim
>>>> Williams <rkvend at aol.com>, Kimberly Flores <kflores at nfb-texas.org>,
> Larry
>>>> Posont <president.nfb.mi at gmail.com>, Lynn Majewski <majla at verizon.net>,
>>>> Mary
>>>> Willows <mwillows at sbcglobal.net>, Melissa Riccobono
> <melissa at riccobono.us>,
>>>> Michael Barber <michael.NFBI at gmail.com>, Michael Freeman
> <k7uij at panix.com>,
>>>> Mika Pyyhkala <pyyhkala at gmail.com>, Nani Fife <nanifife at aol.com>, Pam
> Allen
>>>> <pallen at lcb-ruston.com>, Parnell Diggs <parnell at sccoast.net>, Patti
> Chang
>>>> <pattichang at att.net>, Rena Smith <realhappygirl1 at gmail.com>, Ron Brown
>>>> <rb15 at iquest.net>, "Gardner, Ron" <RGardner at nfb.org>, Sam Gleese
>>>> <SGleese at city.jackson.ms.us>, Scott LaBarre <slabarre at labarrelaw.com>,
> Terry
>>>> Sheeler <tosheeler at cox.net>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:50:08 -0700
>>>>> Subject: National Federation of the Blind Condemns Lack of Access to
> New
>>>> Kindle Fire
>>>>>
>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>>
>>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>>
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Condemns
>>>>> Lack of Access to New Kindle Fire
>>>>>
>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (September 29, 2011): The National Federation of
> the
>>>>> Blind commented today on the release of Amazon's new Kindle Fire, 
>>>>> which
>>>>> cannot be used by people who are blind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind,
> said:
>>>>> "Blind Americans have repeatedly asked Amazon to include accessibility
> for
>>>>> the blind in its Kindle product line.  The feasibility of including
>>>>> accessibility in similar products has been demonstrated.  The
> Department
>>>>> of Education and the Department of Justice have made it clear that
> Kindle
>>>>> devices cannot be purchased by educational institutions, libraries, 
>>>>> and
>>>>> other entities covered by this country's disability laws unless the
>>>>> devices are fully accessible.  Despite all this, Amazon has released a
>>>>> brand new Kindle device, the Kindle Fire, which cannot be used by
> people
>>>>> who are blind.  Enough!  We condemn this latest action by Amazon and
>>>>> reiterate that we will not tolerate technological discrimination.  The
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind seeks nothing less than equal access
> to
>>>>> all technology for blind people.  It is one of the most critical civil
>>>>> rights issues facing blind Americans in the twenty-first century, and
> we
>>>>> will do everything in our power to see that this right is secured."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ###
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is
> the
>>>>> largest and most influential membership organization of blind people 
>>>>> in
>>>>> the United States.  The NFB improves blind people's lives through
>>>>> advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in the
>>>>> blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind.  In January
>>>>> 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
>>>>> Institute, the first research and training center in the United States
> for
>>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>>
>>>>
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