[nfb-talk] Guide Bots

Todor Fassl fassl.tod at gmail.com
Thu May 30 16:35:38 UTC 2013


I can understand your opinion. But millions of people have dogs just 
because they like dogs. So for a lot of people, having to clean up after 
a dog is worth it not even considering the additional benefits you get 
from a guide dog.

Is the extra mobility you get from a guide dog worth the inconvenience? 
I don't think there is one right answer to that question. For me, it's 
not even close. I'd probably have a dog anyway.

On 05/29/13 22:17, Mike Freeman wrote:
> I, on the other hand, would prefer a machine partner to a dog partner --
> nothing to pick up with a machine! (grin)
>
> Oh yes -- kids used to call my stylus a "poker". I'd better stop there!
> (grin)
>
> Mike Freeman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
> McGinnity
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:13 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Guide Bots
>
> We dog users get that too.  I've had my dog called a Seeing Eye Dog(which
> she is not), a helper dog, and even a blind dog.  Unless I have to talk to
> the person extensively, I let it go.
>
> My mom still calls my Braille note a Pacmate, which might annoy Humanware,
> but personally, I think it's funny.  And as long as my cane isn't called a
> wand anymore, I think I can live with anything else.
> If it's someone you know well, then just correct them quickly and gently.
> Perhaps we should put print labels on all our products to help them out...
>
> I think a guide bot would be interesting...  But I don't want a machine to
> know where I'm going.  If it could be programmed just to follow my
> duirections and lead me around obstacles like a dog does, I think it would
> be ok.  But I do enjoy working with a dog.  I think an animal would make a
> better partner than a machine.  :)
>
> On 5/29/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> I do not disagree with the assertions in this note.  I would add that
>> when I was younger, my hearing allowed me to gather additional
>> information beyond the reach of my cane.  I still use my hearing to
>> augment my cane, but it is somewhat less effective as I get older.
>>
>> Where my view of the problem differs from yours is with the idea that
>> we need something to physically guide us.  I think that adds
>> complexity that is not really necessary.  What we need is a device
>> that gives us more feedback about the environment around us that we
>> may not get with our cane or with our hearing.  There are devices that
>> already try to do that, and some are somewhat successful.  I've seen
>> some good ideas and some that had limitations as part of our R&D
>> Committee over the years, but it has just felt to me that something
>> better could be developed.  Therefore, I think this is a topic worth
>> exploring, and would be interested in learning more why you feel that
>> a solution would have to physically guide us rather than just provide
>> us with useful additional feedback.  For one thing, if something is
>> guiding us, how to we loearn what kind of feedback it is reacting to
>> and whether its reactions are even correct?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Tue, 28 May 2013 16:48:33 -0400, Michael Bullis wrote:
>>
>>> Let me see if I can bring the discussion of a guide bot to its essence
>>> without making it too controversial.
>>> Sometimes, a pair of eyes is very useful in travel and more efficient
>>> than  a cane.
>>> I'm a lifelong cane user and would probably be described as an
>>> excellent traveler.  But, having said that, there are some things that
>>> a pair of  eyes, whether provided by a dog or provided by a human, can
>>> do that I cannot do  as quickly with a cane.  One example would be
>>> working through a crowd.
>>> Another
>>> example would be moving through a room that has many obstacles in it
>>> that need to be circumvented.
>>> All of this can be done with a cane but I have to slow down to some
>>> extent to examine the objects and work my way through them.
>>> If a guide-bot were to be practical the question would be could it
>>> give me enough information in advance to move me through these
>>> situations more efficiently.
>>> I must hasten to add that I would still keep a cane with me just as I
>>> did when working with a dog because there are times when I need to
>>> orient  myself in the environment.  In other words, neither a dog nor
>>> a guide bot can replace my own awareness of where I am and where I'm
>>> going.
>>> This morning, while on the way to work, I hit my head on three very
>>> annoyingly wet tree branches that were hanging down at about face height.
>>> Interestingly, there was a clear path of travel which, if I had a pair
>>> of eyes, I would have seen, but the cane couldn't tell me where that
>>> path was because the branches were at head height, something the cane
>>> doesn't  cover.
>>> A well trained dog could have seen these branches and would have
>>> perhaps maneuvered me past them.  And this guide bot could hopefully
>>> do the same thing.
>>> I walk fifteen or twenty miles a week with my cane, often in new and
>>> therefore unfamiliar neighborhoods.  Because I walk in large part for
>>> the exercise, it is annoying to have to slow down to analyze a new
>>> situation--fire hydrant in the middle of the sidewalk, Etc.  If a
>>> guide  bot could provide me with a quick way of maneuvering in these
>>> new environments it would be worth having, assuming it didn't break my
>>> limited bank  account.
>>> So, in my view, much of the benefit of the bot will depend upon how
>>> many things it can do that I now find slower to do.  Nothing will stop
>>> me from traveling but if the bot worked, it would make it more
>>> efficient in some situations.
>>> My reason for putting this out there is to tear it apart and ask the
>>> questions that need to be asked.  Thanks for all the feedback.
>>> Mike
>>> Mike Bullis
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Misty
>>> Dawn Bradley
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:42 PM
>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Guide Bots
>>> I am the same way. I have been using my cane since I was in
>>> kindergarten or
>>>
>>> first grade, which is about 20 years ago, so I don't feel right when I
>>> don't
>>> have my cane with me. I also like the challenge of figuring out things
>>> on  my
>>> own, although it is nice to have a GPS sometimes, but it is not a
>>> necessity.
>>> Misty
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Gloria Whipple" <glowhi at centurylink.net>
>>> To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Guide Bots
>>
>>>> I am not sure about this. I am so use to using my cane and like it.
>>>>
>>>> Gloria Whipple
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:28
>>>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Guide Bots
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> To me, the idea of a device that is responsible for guiding, even if
>>>> made simpler as described here, adds so much complexity and size
>>>> that really has limited advantage to my way of thinking.  A small
>>>> device that could be mounted on a cane or connected to a dog's leash
>>>> to detect objects and provide feedback would provide most of what a
>>>> guiding device would without the size and other complicating issues.
>>>> Why does it have to aim itself at all if the blind person were to
>>>> receive enough information to do the aiming from a smaller travel
>>>> aid?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:24:59 -0400, Michael Bullis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've been thinking about a new travel device lately and would be
>>>>> interested in any feedback members might have.
>>>>> I've been wondering lately if there is enough reasonably priced
>>>>> portable processing power available to make a guide bot.
>>>> >From looking on the web there are a few projects, mostly not very
>>>>> efficient ones.  There is a company called nst that is working on it
>>>>> but expects  to bring a product to market in the 2020's.  The reason
>>>>> most projects are  so difficult is that they are spending inordinate
>>>>> amounts of time and money teaching the guide bots to climb stairs
>>>>> and fully "lead" the blind person.
>>>>> We know this is unnecessary.
>>>>> If you remove the necessity to "lead" the blind person the project
>>>>> becomes much simpler.
>>>>> The device doesn't need to climb stairs.  The blind person can
>>>>> simply  lift it up or down.  This assumes of course that it is a
>>>>> lightweight  device.
>>>>> For example, suppose you have a two wheeled device with two forward
>>>>> facing cameras  and a handle on it that you direct.  You push the
>>>>> device down  the sidewalk let's say.  When it detects an object that
>>>>> you should go  around,
>>>> to
>>>>> the left, the left wheel has a brake on it.  When the left brake
>>>>> engages
>>>> and
>>>>> slows the left wheel, the device naturally turns that direction.
>>>>> The  same thing happens if you want to go right.  If there's a curb
>>>>> coming, both wheels slowly engage their brakes.
>>>>> At any time, if you as the person in charge wish to override the
>>>>> braking, you simply give a quick shove to the device.
>>>>> The blind person provides the forward motion, eliminating any need
>>>>> for motive power.  The only thing the device needs power for is
>>>>> processing  and braking.
>>>>> Whether verbally, or with a small keypad, you tell the device what
>>>>> you want it to do.  If the device is going to talk to you at all it
>>>>> needs to be through an open-ear earbud.  But this may be
>>>>> unnecessary.
>>>>> I believe it would require two cameras for measuring distance and
>>>>> for scanning both in front and to the sides.
>>>>> In order for the device to be practical it would have to solve
>>>>> problems
>>>> that
>>>>> the cane and most dogs don't solve.  That is, it would have to
>>>>> detect objects at head height.  And, it would have to be fast.  The
>>>>> thing that limits a cane user in new territory is the necessity of
>>>>> slowing down  while detecting an object and moving around it.
>>>>> I place a list of things below that are within reach of today's
>>>>> technology but I'm not sure if they are within the practical
>>>>> financial boundaries of
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> marketable device.
>>>>> I thought those of you who think about matters like this might weigh
>>>>> in  on this and let me know.
>>>>> Here is my list of things the device could do.
>>>>> 1.  avoiding objects-people and other interferences to the path of
>>>>> travel
>>>>> 2.  Detecting objects as high as one's head.
>>>>> 3.  identifying curbs and ramps
>>>>> 4.  recognizing intersecting sidewalks or other paths of travel
>>>>> 5.  finding doors
>>>>> 6.  locating up or down stairs
>>>>> 7.  locating elevators
>>>>> 8.  locating elevator buttons
>>>>> 9.  finding restrooms
>>>>> 10.  finding empty urinals
>>>>> 11.  finding empty seats on busses or in conference rooms
>>>>> 12.  returning to an already found seat
>>>>> 13.  finding a bus stop
>>>>> 14.  finding a specific address
>>>>> 15.  following an indicated person
>>>>> I'd be interested in feedback on this idea.
>>>>> If you wish to write me off-line, do so at
>>>>> mbullis at imagemd.org
>>>>> Thanks for your thinking.
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> %40vis
>>> i
>>>> .com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
> --
> Julie McG
> National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National Federation
> of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of
> Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For
> God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who
> believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
> John 3:16
>
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