[nfb-talk] dogs and canes, or the other way around

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Sun Nov 17 20:46:19 UTC 2013


In short, its not how you do it doesn't matter as much as what you do.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <Mike at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NFB Talk Mailing List'" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:40 PM
Subject: [nfb-talk] dogs and canes, or the other way around


Hi,

First I realized there is a better way to state my position.

Technology does not provide independence.  Rather independence comes from
the mind and within.  The independent person is the one who has the
confidence to do a thing and then goes out and does it.

In fact, I have seen good cane travelers who travel as well as good guide
dog users.  Dr. Maurer and I for example, walked the Golden Gate Bridge a
few years ago.  We both out-paced the rest of our group.  I have seen Dr.
Maurer and Jim Gashel both walk as quickly as any guide dog users and they
used canes and have never chosen to use guide dogs.

I also have seen great guide dog users who walk faster than most cane
travelers.  It's not the cane that makes a good or fast traveler, and it's
not the dog either.  It's knowledge and confidence learned only through
experience.

I submit I can teach anyone to use a cane in five minutes.  I don't care if
it is a blind or blindfolded sighted person.  I can teach them cane travel
in five minutes.  However, and this is a big however, teaching anyone the
confidence to use a cane takes at least months.  Most agencies do not do it
well which is why the NFB has created centers and which is why some state
and private agencies also stand out.  Without the right philosophy and
attitude confidence and independence will never come.  If we do not set the
bar high we will not teach future generations of blind people how to really
live.  If we cannot get sighted people also to set a higher bar for their
blindness concepts and thus for blind persons we will not advance our cause.



Best,


Michael Hingson

The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
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Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit:
www.michaelhingson.com

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-----Original Message-----
From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
Keeler
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:50 AM
To: NFB Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!

Now, that's stupid! I always will advocate good cane use at first. Everyone
should know how to use the caqne! The dog is a good choice if you like dogs
and want to move fast. But, if you don't want or for some reason can't use
the dog, then the cane is always there! Even in my back pack, I have a
folding cane in there with dog accessories. I also have a straight cane
living in my closet. Even that thing comes out of there on occassion! I do
get it though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Lester" <JLester8462 at pccua.edu>
To: <mike at michaelhingson.com>; "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!


>I know you're good at using both, which is why I'm not against you
>using a dog.
> The reason I say "preferably a cane," for Jimmy's situation, is at the
>Alabama State School for the Blind in 1939, he and the other blind guys
>learned to be guided by placing their hands on the shoulders of sighted
>individuals, and they never had the experience of using a cane!
> They must be proficient with cane travel, before they get a dog,
>because  what if something happens to the dog?
> That's why I brought up the independence issues, because they'd be
>depending on the dog, since the guys don't know how to find clues as
>cane  users first.
> One should superceed the other.
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nfb-talk [nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Michael
>Hingson  [Mike at michaelhingson.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:43 PM
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> I submit that a dog user needs to use the same clues since the dog is
> given specific on-going commands by the handler.  The cane finds
> things the user has to observe and then avoid, true.  However, the
> issue isn't whether the traveler has to make a determination about
> every single obstacle, but rather the issue is whether or not the
> traveler can use the clues around them to either handle the cane and
> walk safely or give the dog commands to continue walking.
>
> It isn't "dependence on the dog", but rather it is working
> synergistically to accomplish a task.  A good guide dog user is JUST
> as independent as a good cane traveler.  I know, I use them both.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Joshua Lester
> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:20 AM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> We've discussed this on another list!
> You're more independent with a cane, because you're responsible for
> finding clues, and things like that, but when you have a dog, you're
> depending on the dog's sight, to get you where you need to go.
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nfb-talk [nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Eddie
> Salcido [rednexican at socal.rr.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:10 AM
> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> Preferably a cane?  According to whose preference and why should it
> matter to you whether someone uses a dog or a cane to get around
independently?
> Isn't it enough that said hypothetical person travels about?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Joshua Lester
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:17 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> Correct!
> I'm proud of Mr. Carter's responses about it, but I want to know, as I
> posted before, why doesn't he use a cane or a dog?
> All of the blind boys are putting their hands on the shoulders of the
> sighted guys in the band, so they can be led on stage!
> #1, that's empropper sighted guide, and #2, they need to use a cane,
> or a dog, but preferably a cane, to get around!
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nfb-talk [nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Mark Tardif
> [markspark at roadrunner.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 4:46 PM
> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> All I will say is that racism should be considered ridiculous and
> stupid regardless of whether one is blind or dighted.
>
>
>
> Mark Tardif
> Nuclear arms will not hold you.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua Lester
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 3:13 PM
> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nfb-talk] Stupidity running amuck on the Colbert Report!
>
> Two nights ago, my friends, the Blind Boys of Alabama were guests on
> Stephen Colbert's show on Commedy Central.
> Colbert had the nerve to ask Jimmy Carter, (the leader of the group,)
> a stupid question.
> "As a blind person, does racism seem ridiculous to you, since you
> can't tell what race somebody is?"
> What's next?
> Not only is the question offensive from a racial standpoint, but it's
> offensive from the blindness perspective!
> I would have asked to have my group removed from the show, but Jimmy
> educated Mr. Colbert, and handled it with grace!
> There's a link to this ignorance on the group's Twitter page.
> http://www.twitter.com/blindboys
> Blessings, Joshua
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>
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