[nfb-talk] Fwd: Mandalay Bay discussion

kaye zimpher kaye.j.zimpher at gmail.com
Sat Jul 28 00:13:28 UTC 2018


I love this post. I don't know this lawyer, but he should become a 
professor. He really broke this situation down for those of us who did not 
understand but were afraid to say so, so whoever he is, thanks!
As for the convention. I still want to go. My love of the organization will 
far overshadow the hotel's behavior, or business decision. However, it is my 
hope that the hotel restaurants are not the only option. $25 for breakfast 
might be out for my family of 2. :)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Ausbun via nfb-talk" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
To: "NFB Talk Mailing List" <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Michael Ausbun" <michael.ausbun at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: Mandalay Bay discussion


> hi all,
> I echo a previous suggestion;  those who are concerned should reach out to 
> president Riccobono at officeofthepresident at nfb.org. In the mean time, 
> I'll share this facebook post, from a  friend of mine who is a lawyer:
> I'm not in any way going to comment on the merits of pending litigation. 
> However, one thing I can do, and really enjoy doing, is explaining in 
> educational terms, how things like civil procedure work. And this morning, 
> doing that is going to provide me with a nice outlet, and I hope it's 
> informative to my non-lawyer friends.
>
> I just heard a story on NPR where they said the owners of Mandalay Bay are 
> "suing the victims" of the Las Vegas shooting. To be fair, they followed 
> up with a passable attempt at explaining what's actually going on. But 
> they left a lot of things out, and leading into it with that language is 
> pretty misleading. So here's a lawsplainer on a fun little thing called 
> declaratory judgments for your Wednesday morning.
>
> Most lawsuits work like this. A person who feels they've been injured 
> files suit against the person who's supposed to have injured them. The 
> person suing is called "the plaintiff," and the person defending is 
> called, well, "the defendant." The defendant pretty much has to hire a 
> lawyer. In fact, if the defendant is a business entity, then they 
> absolutely have to hire a lawyer. Otherwise, so long as the plaintiff 
> offers any proof of anything, the court is going to side with them because 
> there's nothing to rebut what the plaintiff has said. If the defendant 
> doesn't defend themselves, then the plaintiff will move for what's called 
> a default judgment. This basically just means "I win because they didn't 
> defend themselves."
>
> *BUT*, there's another kind of lawsuit called "a declaratory judgment. 
> We'll call it "a dec" to make it easier. A dec is where the person who 
> would ordinarily be the defendant goes to a court and says either "Hey, 
> these people are suing us in this state court. Could you please explain to 
> them that they can't do that because this federal law prohibits it?" Or, 
> they might say, "Hey, we think these people are going to sue us based on 
> this thing that happened. Could you please just go ahead and find that 
> we're not responsible before they do?"
>
> For the Vegas victims, it's the first of those two situations described in 
> the last paragraph. In other words, a lot of the victims are trying to sue 
> Mandalay Bay in Nevada state court. But there's this federal law that 
> *might* protect Mandalay Bay from any liability. Now, I don't know whether 
> the federal law preempts the state law or not, and it would be 
> irresponsible for me to offer my opinion on that. *BUT*, here's the main 
> point. The court is gonna declare what it's gonna declare. So if the 
> federal law beats the state law, then the court will find in favor of 
> Mandalay Bay. If it doesn't, then the court will find in favor of the 
> shooting victims, and they can keep on suing in state court. Even if all 
> those victims have NO representation in the dec action (which won't happen 
> btw), and they default, they're not going to be paying damages or legal 
> fees to Mandalay Bay. And, it's not going to impact the result of the dec 
> action.
>
> So you might be asking "why would Mandalay Bay do this? If nothing else, 
> it makes them look bad because of stories that have the headline 'Mandalay 
> Bay sues shooting victims.'" True enough, but if you have 200 people with 
> 200 different lawyers filing 200 lawsuits against you in one court, and 
> you can file *one* declaratory judgment in another court to resolve the 
> main legal question in most of those other lawsuits, why wouldn't you? The 
> cost of defending against 200 different lawsuits would be enormous, so 
> they pretty much don't have a choice. If you think about it, it's the 
> difference between preventive care versus just going to the hospital when 
> you're sick. By settling this big legal question in advance, Mandalay Bay 
> can do a lot of preventive care. And, I might add, I'd rather know up 
> front whether I had any chance at recovering money from the casino, rather 
> than going through a drawn out litigation process, but that's just me. So 
> regardless of how it might look from the outside, it's functionally the 
> only thing for Mandalay Bay to do in this type situation.
>
> If you made it this far, you're now a declaratory judgment rock star!
>
>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Michael Hingson via nfb-talk 
>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Everyone,
>>
>> Clearly this is a hot issue. We do not know all the details of the MGM 
>> litigation, but it does seem to me that their tactic is, while possibly 
>> an interesting legal maneuver, less than totally ethical. At the same 
>> time, our president, Marc Riccobono, entered into a contract with the 
>> Mandalay Bay probably before the litigation came down. No matter what, we 
>> have a contract and the opportunity to hold our next National convention 
>> in Las Vegas. Let's keep our eye on our issues and withhold judgement. We 
>> succeed because we keep our eyes on what is important to us.
>>
>> This is not to say that, given the litigation, we might need to select a 
>> different location. Such is extremely difficult. Sometimes we need to 
>> make choices. I assure you that no matter the litigation people continue 
>> to visit the Mandalay Bay an stay there.
>>
>> Let's be patient. President Riccobono will do the right thing and he will 
>> respond when he deems it appropriate. We spoke and elected him president. 
>> Let him lead.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk <nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sherri Brun via 
>> nfb-talk
>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:56 AM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List' <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sherri Brun <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> I would  like to know what the view of our national leaders is about 
>> this.  This troubles me very much!
>> Sherri
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark 
>> Tardif via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:51 PM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Mark Tardif <markspark at roadrunner.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> Amen, Judy!
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Tardif
>> Nuclear arms will not hold you.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Judy Jones via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:07 AM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Cc: Judy Jones
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> If the owners would pull something like this toward the victims, what 
>> other lapses of conscience might they have regarding our organization? 
>> It makes me wonder if they are sue-happy?  I don't mean to be unfair, but 
>> to me, suing the victims, of all people, who don't need any more on their 
>> plate right now, seems unconscionable.
>>
>> Judy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherri 
>> Brun via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 10:18 PM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Cc: Sherri Brun
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> I had wondered the same thing Dan.  I hope we made the deal before the 
>> shootings and the actions of the hotel against the victims.
>> Sherri
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Judy 
>> Jones via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:37 PM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List' <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Judy Jones <sonshines59 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> Yes, I didn't make that connection right away either, so you aren't the 
>> only one.
>>
>> Judy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan 
>> Hicks via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:51 AM
>> To: 'NFB Talk Mailing List'
>> Cc: Dan Hicks
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> Isn't the connection rather obvious?
>>
>> I had not realized until I saw these news reports that the hotel we are 
>> using for our 2019 convention is the same hotel that the Las Vegas 
>> shooter used to massacre more 58 people in injure hundreds more. I had 
>> not made the connection. The reason it has resurfaced in the news is that 
>> the hotel's owners are suing the victims of the shooting, to stop them 
>> from claiming damages from the hotel, if the hotel is found to be 
>> culpable. This seems to be kind of a slimy move on the part of a hotel, 
>> with which the NFB is contracting with.
>>
>> Maybe we reached out to them before the shootings -- or at least before 
>> those callous pre-emptive law suits?  Or, maybe this is why the NFB is 
>> getting such good rates?
>>
>> Dan Hicks
>> Treasurer, Tampa Bay Chapter
>> National Federation of the Blind of Florida
>>
>> “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”
>>                                                 ― Abraham Lincoln
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nfb-talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raymond 
>> Foret Jr via nfb-talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 4:31 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List
>> Cc: Raymond Foret Jr
>> Subject: Re: [nfb-talk] Fwd: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting 
>> victims to avoid liabili...
>>
>> Just what, I wonder, has this got to do with blindness or us?
>>
>>
>> Sent from the only computer with built-in screen reader access for the
>> blind:
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> The constantly barefooted Ray
>>
>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Judy Jones via nfb-talk
>>> <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Judy
>>> sent from the Samsung Galaxy Folder 2
>>>
>>> --- Forwarded message ---
>>> From: Twitter <info at twitter.com>
>>> Date: July 17, 2018 8:58:47 AM
>>> Subject: "Mandalay Bay owner sues Las Vegas shooting victims to avoid
>>> liabili...
>>> To: Judy Jones <sonshines59 at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 80
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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