[NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question

Mon Jan 13 19:54:35 UTC 2020

Just to be clear, I didn't say the NFB opposed the ADA. But I don't 
think the NFB ever endorsed the ADA when it was originally in Congress 
in 1990 either. I can provide a link to a Braille Monitor article where 
Dr. Jernigan explains his opposition. But I can find no evidence that 
the NFB ever changed its position and supported the ADA. Here's that link:

https://www.nfb.org/sites/www.nfb.org/files/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm90/brlm9002.htm

Obviously, I'd be very interested in evidence that I am mistaken. If the 
NFB ever changed its position, I don't think it was ever stated in the 
Braille Monitor.

On 1/13/20 1:19 PM, Jim wrote:
> Just a quick fact check.  The NFB did not oppose the ADA.  Rather, the NFB
> said it would oppose the ADA unless it included a clause that let people
> with disabilities opt out of an accommodation.  Unfortunately, it's all too
> common for many, including other disability rights groups, to ignore what we
> blind folks want.  The disregard requires us to take some strong positions
> in our advocacy.  The ADA clause became part of the law, and the NFB
> supported the passage of the ADA.  This means it's illegal to force a person
> with a disability into taking an accommodation.  In other words, saying
> thanks, but no thanks is a civil right.  One example of this would be hotels
> placing all customers with disabilities into their accessible rooms.  One
> should have the right to choose.  We all know that perhaps the biggest
> barrier blind Americans face is the low expectations of others and
> ourselves.  Insisting that blind people are whole human beings who can
> decide for ourselves is a critical part of the ADA, thanks to the advocacy
> of the NFB.  I'm proud that the Federation took the stance it did.
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Marks
> blind.grizzly at gmail.com
> (406) 438-1421
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nFB-Talk [mailto:nfb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jack Heim
> via nFB-Talk
> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: mike at michaelhingson.com; 'NFB Talk Mailing List' <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>; 'Chris Westbrook' <westbchris at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question
> 
> Okay, I am willing to listen. What do we have today that we wouldn't have if
> the NFB hadn't fought for it?
> 
> The reason those of us with guide dogs have access to public places has
> nothing to do with the NFB. Guide dog schools pre-date the NFB and the NFB
> was not supportive of the ADA.
> 
> You're missing the point with respect to that essay by Dr. Jernigan. The
> point is not that today, most of us would consider his opinion wrong.
> Its that the reason he came out against guide dogs was because they
> inconvenienced the general public. Dr. Jernigan didn't believe in fighting
> for accommodations that would make the general public uncomfortable. Maybe
> that's a good thing. Maybe Dr. Jernigan was right and Adapt is wrong.
> 
> PS: It is extremely rude for you to accuse me of not having facts in a
> message where you do nothing but state your own totally unsubstantiated
> opinions. The only one who as actually provided facts here is me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/13/20 11:50 AM, mike at michaelhingson.com wrote:
>> Jack,
>>
>> In fact, while you state part of the facts you do not tell the entire
> story.
>> Dr. Jernigan later acknowledged that he was wrong.
>>
>> The NFB has done more toward advocating for the rights of blind
>> persons than ANY organization. Best proof is the size of NAGDU both as
>> a division as well as the amount of activity on this list.
>>
>> No, you are incorrect. The NFB knows ore about advocacy and defending
>> our rights than anyone. If you read my earlier contribution to this
>> thread you should have seen that even this organization is prepared to
> protest.
>>
>> I will not debate you further except to say that you need to get ALL
>> your facts together before making the kind of broad sweeping comments
>> you did here.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nFB-Talk On Behalf Of Jack Heim via nFB-Talk
>> Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 9:33 AM
>> To: NFB Talk Mailing List <nfb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Jack Heim <john at johnheim.com>; Chris Westbrook
>> <westbchris at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NFB-Talk] civil disobedience question
>>
>> You cannot learn anything about advocacy by asking the people on this
> list.
>> All the people on this list can give you is their personal preferences
>> -- which on this list will very much tend toward the conservative. If
>> you want to know whether a polite or a confrontational approach to
>> protesting works better, you cannot learn that from the people on this
>> lis, they don't know anything about advocacy.
>>
>> The NFB itself has been extraordinarily conservative over the years.
>> In 1995, the Braille Monitor held a debate over the use of guide dogs.
>> https://www.nfb.org/sites/www.nfb.org/files/images/nfb/publications/bm
>> /bm95/
>> brlm9510.htm
>>
>> The extraordinary thing about that issue of the Braille Monitor was an
>> essay by Kenneth Jernigan expressing his opinion that guide dogs were
>> an unnecessary burden on society. So you can guess what he'd have
>> thought of Adapt.
>>
>>
>> On 1/13/20 9:10 AM, Chris Westbrook via nFB-Talk wrote:
>>> I'm curious to know what my fellow NF members think of something. I
>>> am on the board of a local organization here (not NFB or blindness
>>> related) and some people from that organization decided to protest
>>> lack of wheelchair access by totally disrupting the inauguration
>>> ceremony for new politicians, to the point where they were arrested
>>> and almost charged with disorderly conduct etc. As you can imagine
>>> this has sparked some controversy. I don't want to get in to more
>>> detail here as I am on the board and we haven't discussed things yet,
>>> but i'm just curious if anyone feels such militant protests are ever
>>> justified? I am inclined to say no and definitely not in this
>>> specific case for other reasons I won't get into here. This protest
>>> was apparently enabled/aided by ADAPT which seems to be a very in
>>> your face organization that is bad news in my opinion. It seems to me
>>> that such protests can only hurt our cause. I think we must be
>>> careful to always behave with dignity and be the adults in the room so to
> speak.
>> Curious what you all think.
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>>
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